Student council were given the opportunity to discuss the situation in Palestine last week, and whilst the proposal fell at the first hurdle, it is still right that they had a chance to do so. If students are concerned about an issue it should be discussed in council.
Notwithstanding, I was slightly perplexed by this one line in the extensive proposal: “Unfortunately the NUS refused to call for an immediate ceasefire and has regularly failed to support these international laws calling for an end to the Israeli occupation.”
I’m sorry, but who the hell cares what the NUS say about international relations? They have enough trouble getting people to listen to their rants about students.
I’m sure the Israelis would have called an immediate ceasefire if the NUS had stepped in. The Israeli Army’s tanks would have trembled, their rifles would have jammed and their helicopter gunships fallen out of the sky at the idea of British Students disagreeing with them.
Perhaps there should be a new NUS world peace initiative.
I could see it now. The dull sound of an NUS rally making it’s way towards Darfur, via Israel, with Gemma Tumulty at the helm, on their journey to halt the world’s injustice.
Armed with the NUS constitution and hefty leaflets which they send out to the Union every so often, they know with full confidence that they can bore to death even the deadliest foe.
And, should that for some unfathomable reason fail, in true Lock Stock style, they can always hit them with it, ‘cause its pretty damned hefty.
Come on guys, lets think. If the UN can’t solve it then what is the point in the NUS making a ruling?
I’m not saying they shouldn’t call for a ceasefire, or that I don’t agree, or for that matter calling it a waste of time because it’s important to give students a route through which they can try and effect international politics.
To have a pop at NUS for not passing this motion is madness though, hopefully they were busier with something else.
Probably producing this crap “Irreplaceable: The Benefits of NUS affiliation” booklet.
You know what, on second thoughts, sending the NUS to the middle east is sounding much more attractive.
1. Chris, Welsh Republicans
Dan, you should go there. No seriously, not to be blown up but to see how loving and compassionate Palestinian Christian’s and Muslims are despite having their land snatched from them by Israel in 1948. Hundreds of thousands live in refugee camps,gazza is a virtual concentration camp (so this is what Jews learns from their history- how to be almost as vile as the Nazis to folk you don’t like). Zionist land thieves spend their free time in thier large swimming pools whilst Palestinians have to wait hours each day for a glass of water. Most of palestine’s hospitals are without electricity, whilst Israel buys more and more british made weapons and wmd. Israel ignores UN resoultions.
So Dan, go to see all of this since when one of our beloved Exec members went recently they saw none of. They had first class treatment and met with government representatives. Ghaith, President of the Palestinian Solidarity Society asked, which government- the answer? The Israeli Government! That’s like the IRC going to Herr Hilter and asking about the recreation facilities for vegans in Belsen…. And who paid for our recently elected representative to have this golden freebie holiday? Well, that bastion of objectivity- the Union of Jewish Students. Somebody’s certainly learnt quickly how to jump aboard the politcal gravy train. The recent history of Israel is an insult to Judaism, and freebie propaganda holidays are an insult to cardiff Students Union.
2. Jon
“gazza is a virtual concentration camp “
I thought he was a Geordie ex-footballer? I think you mean Gaza. Quite a fundamental mistake. It also sounds like you are saying it is something you would find in cyberspace, perhaps somewhere you would send a Sims character. Might be a bit anal to pick up on grammar and spelling, but the meaning of that sentence is completely different to what you intended it to be and if you can’t recognise that when you write it then it doesn’t instill confidence in me for the rest of the comment. I would suggest “Gaza is virtually a concentration camp” would give you your preferred meaning.
Anyway, I think that the NUS calling for a ceasefire is pointless. It should also concentrate on what it was created for, helping students in the UK at university, and not in solving world peace.
3. chris white
“...how loving and compassionate Palestinian Christian’s and Muslims are despite having their land snatched from them by Israel in 1948.”
Blowing people up is loving and compassionate?
(Btw, ever noticed that much of Palestine was illegally occupied by Egypt and [Trans]Jordan for 20 years with hardly a complaint? Could it perhaps be because the Jordanians and Egytpians aren’t Jews?)
Anyway, Jon and the author of this piece are quite right. The NUS is the student equivalent of a trades union and should be lobbying on issues relevant to students. World Peace is a little bit outside its remit.
4. chris white
Hang on. Why are we commenting on a piece from 16 issues ago?
5. Jon
26 issues isn’t it?
Good spot.
6. chris white
Yes. I can’t add.
7. Mark
Chris Israel hasn’t bought British weapons since the 1950’s and we’ve never sold her, or anyone else for that matter Nuclear, Biological, Chemical or Radiological weapons, related technology, equipment or information. To suggest otherwise demonstrates that you know nothing about the history of the Israeli military or that you know that Britain has never supplied such weapons but mention it anyway because you like condemning both Britain and Israel and realise that 99% of students don’t really know much about the subject so may just believe you. As I also said Britain hasn’t supplied Israel with weapons sine the 1950s, so tell me now just what British made weapons the Israeli Defence Forces currently use? You know damn well that the IDF uses predominantly indigenously or American made equipment and whilst it is likely Israel does have a small nuclear capability it was almost certainly produced in the late 1970s with the aid of South Africa and Israel has never publicly stated it has such weapons, threatened anyone with them with or tried to gain political advantage from them. Compare that to both Iran and North Korea, particularly the former, which is embarking on a path to nuclear weapons with the publicly stated ain of destroying Israel and yet I’ve not once heard you condemning Iran on this matter.
Secondly the Palestinian land was ‘stolen’ by Israel in 1948, again you demonstrate your critical lack of historical knowledge of the Middle East, but the UN past a resolution to divide up the lands and give the Jewish people a homeland after millennia of oppression. The Arabs then attempted to destroy the fledging Israeli State, which was lacking in manpower and armed only with obsolete ex British and French weapons left over from WWII. The Israelis fought like bloody hero’s, determined not to lose a homeland after so long in the wilderness, and not only did they win but they secured the future of their nation and defeated their enemies. Time and time again her Arab neighbours have tried to defeat Israel and time and again they have failed, the Palestinians have had to resort to cowardly terrorists actions, including attacking innocent civilians, including women and children. If her Arab neighbours recognised Israel had a Right to exist and if the Palestinians turned their backs on terrorism and instead adopted peaceful protest and politics then they’d be peace in the Middle East right now. As Chris W said the other day, obstinately you always argue against fascism, but when it was an Arab face you seem perfectly happy to support it.
Thirdly, as Jon says, there’s no point in the NUS debating matters over which it can do nothing about. The NUS should concentrate on what it was designed for, helping students in Bgritish universities on matters that are directly pertinent to them.
8. Rasputin
Chris: or, indeed, subtract.
9. chris white
I actually seriously can’t subtract, so I add backwards.
10. CTD
Jon- instead of pointing out a typo, concentrate on answering my points like a good little boy. And I can speak arabic, and read the Quor’n in arabic, so don’t lecture me, min fdlak.
I am commenting on an article from sometime ago so that I can raise the important issue of a Exec member having freebie propaganda holidays recently.
And yes, I think many frustrated young arab men do act out of compassion for thier loved ones and nation and engage with their enemey, a wealthy, western nation which is barbaric in its treatmetn of Arabs. The Arab, quite understandable reaction, is a desperate cry for justice. As the Allies heard the cry of Jews against fascism, we must hear the cry of Arabs against the evils of Zionism. Most people in the UK, except Conservatives like mark, oppossed Apartheid. Israel is an Apartheid State and unless it changes the world duty is to bring this country to its knees. And that’s the words of Archbishop Tutu— but he’s left wing so you couldn’t possibly give moral weight to what he says could you Mark?
And Chris, youy can make the Anti-Semite allegations as much as you like because if standing up for Arab children shot on their way to school for stone throwing means I am called by the uneducated an Anti-Semite, then so be it. But I bet I know as much conquest theology in Joshua as your average jewish student- and I can argue conclusively that what Israel is doing to the Palestininas is direct violation of the Torah and the Prophets.
You accuse me of lying; I never accuse you of lying- I just say your factually wrong.
As for your assertion that no britsh weasons are sold to Israel, well you’re deliberately not saying that weapons which are mostly british made are sold to Israel and Amnesty International, has condened this practice by the British State. (AI:Israel and Occupied Territories:Shielded from Scrutiny:IDF Violations in Jenin and nablus, Nov 2002). Airtecnology Group in Sudbury proved systems for Merkava battle tanks. it famously run kids over and other destrcutive machines were used to murder peace campaigner Rachel Corrie. (Guardian 16th July 02- 2 kids- KIDS PLAYING FOOTBALL- were shelled by a Merkava (meanas Chariot).) British sourced Puma and Nachpadon APC’s, one of which was used to kill peace campaigner Baha Al basha, AGED 14. We all know the story of Anne Frank, but will ever hear Baha’s courageous story???
11. Rasputin
You can read fake meat in Arabic? Man, that’s impressive.
And I don’t think Chris was being anti-Semitic or accusing you of lying – merely “factually wrong”.
12. CTD
Should the NUS be involved? Well, if members of the exec of cardiff Uni are to go to Israel they should at least get a proper understanding of the Occupation. And 30 MP’s agree with me including Clair Short.
Mark, let’s talk UN resloutions, though it may well highlight your feeble grasp of history and abject poverty in the realm of international politics. ( But i will just mention another one of my so called lies- the UK Crown’s Ministry of Defence Procurement ( though I have no idea why we are defending ourselves from children playing football thousands of miles away- perhaps the English soccer squad really is desperate). The MOD is supporting the Israeli Killing Machine- BAe purchased 35,000 rounds of cluster shells. And even Heddlu De Cymru-South Wales Police has bought israeli armaments- an issue I will be raising when I met Barbara Wilding next. far better if they spent the money on clearing up horse poo after internationmal games. Anyway, the UN.
The UN has passed over 30 resloutions calling for the establishment of a nucler free zone in the middle east. With British, French, South African and US support Israel had thermonuclear weapons by 1967- the Samson Option. Israel has ignored these, whilst illegally taking finance from the US.
I’m not going to repeat them all, just give you a few links:http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html and
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/
13. chris white
“And Chris, youy can make the Anti-Semite allegations as much as you like because if standing up for Arab children shot on their way to school for stone throwing means I am called by the uneducated an Anti-Semite, then so be it.”
I haven’t accused you of being an anti-semite; I did however suggest that the character of some of the resistance to Israeli occupation might be anti-semitic, on the basis that they kick up a far greater fuss at being occupied by Jews than by their fellow Arabs. Pretty textbook definition of anti-semitism if you ask me.
“You accuse me of lying; I never accuse you of lying- I just say your factually wrong.”
And I certainly didn’t accuse you of lying Chris. Please retract that accusation.
14. Jon
Don’t patronise me, Chris. And you might be able to read Arabic, but what the f*ck does that have to do with not being able to be grammatically correct in the English language? If you don’t have a good grasp of the English language then I doubt your Arabic is particularly good either. Bouse tizi. I’m sure you would like that.
I told you I wasn’t going to reply to the rest of your post because if you can’t take the time to get a simple and fundamental thing like Gaza correct then I’m not going to waste my time on it. And quite frankly, this topic of Palestine and Israel has been answered so many times before it seemed pointless to regurgitate everything again.
15. Chris, Cymry Rydd
Sorry Chris, my little geordie friend, I retract immediately because it was aimed at Mark. I get over excited. It happens with Gair Rhydd,Vegetarian sausages dipped in egg yolk and Ifor the Engine. I would never call you a liar because I have come over the months to respect you as a person (sic. I no longer refer to you as a Gair Rhydd monkey, that and the fact Perri threatened to ban me).
Jon: I didn’t mean to patronise you as I am sure you didn’t mean to take this piss out of me. Anyway, hope this cheers you up- ( I have been praktasing)
GZA, GAAH, GAZZZA, CAERZZRRR-a, GHASIR, NOPE, NEARLY THERE, GAZA- YIPEE. And I think the reason you’re not replying to my post is cos I well and truly ass kicked your arguement ( which is based on an extra z being placed in a word-pertinent? Mmm, let me think about it). BTW, the grade I got for Arabic was 2:1: it should have been a first but I forgot how to spell kamel bonker. As for Bouse tizi- I’d need a practical demonstration as I am obviously not as conversant with the theme of “ pen pidlan gawsog” as you :) or should that be :O)===~ I usually end my thoughts with “Fe godwn ni eto! We shall rise again” but I might give the wrong impression :(
I don’t suppose you’d still be interested in my cow campaign?
16. Jon
“I didn’t mean to patronise you as I am sure you didn’t mean to take this piss out of me. Anyway, hope this cheers you up- ( I have been praktasing) GZA, GAAH, GAZZZA, CAERZZRRR-a, GHASIR, NOPE, NEARLY THERE, GAZA- YIPEE”
Stop being such a patronising idiot. As someone with postgraduate education you should understand that the correct use of words is highly important in conveying an argument. If you can’t spell and use correct grammar, or take the time to have a mature approach to what you write then I’m not going to take what you try and say seriously.
“And I think the reason you’re not replying to my post is cos I well and truly ass kicked your arguement ( which is based on an extra z being placed in a word-pertinent?”
Is that what you think? What argument would that be? Considering the only 2 points I made were the fact that your poor use of English degraded your comment and that I believe the NUS should concentrate on fulfilling its supposed function rather than trying to solve world peace, nothing you have said has “truly ass kicked” either of those points.
I don’t know how you relate someone telling you to kiss their ass to being conversant in the theme of a cheesy nob end. And to be clear, nothing you could EVER do would get a rise out of me in that sense. Sorry to disappoint you.
Anyway, I don’t want to get into a childish insult-throwing fight.
Now, unless you have something useful to say about my actual argument of the NUS sticking to its main function of supporting students at university in the UK rather than getting involved in international politics then I think you should shut up about me.
17. chris white
Ditto Chris.
Hence — aspects of this thread notwithstanding — discourse here is far more cordial than, say, six months ago.
Though I do think you’re bonkers :)
18. Mark
“Most people in the UK, except Conservatives like mark, oppossed Apartheid.”
That’s low even for you. It was the policy of all British Governments to oppose Apartheid and for people who believe in personal liberty and freedom, which time and time again you have demonstrated you aren’t, then apartheid stands for everything people who believe in Liberalism and Conservatism do not. Besides have you ever even been to South Africa? Have you ever walked through the slums of Johannesburg or walked through the palatial avenues of Stellenbosch? No? Well I have so don’t lecture me on something you no nothing about and accuse me of believing in an ideology I find as repugnant and morally reprehensible as you and what you believe in.
“Israel is an Apartheid State and unless it changes the world duty is to bring this country to its knees. And that’s the words of Archbishop Tutu— but he’s left wing so you couldn’t possibly give moral weight to what he says could you Mark?”
Israel is not an apartheid state, Israel is a democracy that is exercising her sovereign to defend herself from terrorism. She may appear paranoid to the outside world but she is the only nation in the world where all of her neighbours seek her destruction. Frankly if Israel wanted to conquer the Middle East she probably could, but her actions have always been measured compared to what she could achieve and based around the legal principle of self-defence.
“As for your assertion that no britsh weasons are sold to Israel, well you’re deliberately not saying that weapons which are mostly british made are sold to Israel and Amnesty International, has condened this practice by the British State.”
No, because you are wrong. Britain didn’t make the Israeli Battle Tanks, Israel did. If a British company provided minor servicing for one aspect of those MBT’s then that is irrelevant. Those Puma helicopters you mention were sourced from a French company, actually I think they were refurbished French Air Force airframes. We’re still using ours. Besides these are all minor compared to what we sell Arab states, Oman, Jordan, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are all British customers. I wish Israel would buy more British military hardware, but they’re American clients, still it would be a coup if they bought a few Daring Class DDGs or Typhoon aircraft from us. We can but hope I suppose.
“Mark, let’s talk UN resloutions, though it may well highlight your feeble grasp of history and abject poverty in the realm of international politics.”
No offence Chris but if I want an opinion on theology I might consider someone with a Post Grad Diploma in Theology a worthy source, but why you feel you’re in a better position to comment on Modern Political History than someone doing a PhD in that area is beyond me.
“( But i will just mention another one of my so called lies- the UK Crown’s Ministry of Defence Procurement ( though I have no idea why we are defending ourselves from children playing football thousands of miles away- perhaps the English soccer squad really is desperate).”
There’s no such thing as a Ministry of Defence Procurement, there is a Minister of Defence Procurement, until recently Lord Drayson, who is a Minister subordinate to the Secretary of State of Defence, currently the Rt. Hon. Des Browne MP, who is the head of the Ministry of Defence.
“The MOD is supporting the Israeli Killing Machine- BAe purchased 35,000 rounds of cluster shells. And even Heddlu De Cymru-South Wales Police has bought israeli armaments”
That’s probably because they’re pretty good and we got a good price for them. Besides who better than the evil Jews to supply the evil English Crown with the means to oppress you gallant Welsh Republicans, right?
“The UN has passed over 30 resloutions calling for the establishment of a nucler free zone in the middle east.”
So does this mean you’re be getting on your high horse over Iran and argue that the world has a duty to ensure Iran is disarmed of any future nuclear weapons?
“With British, French, South African and US support Israel had thermonuclear weapons by 1967- the Samson Option.”
Britain didn’t even supply the French with nuclear technology in the late 1960s because we were barred from doing so by our commitment to the 1964 Non-Proliferation Treaty. The French didn’t have Thermonuclear weapons in 1967 and the South Africans never had them, just to let you know, and it’s pretty unlikely Israel had Thermonuclear weapons until very recently. We sure as hell didn’t supply anything to Israel, neither did the French. It’s probable that the South Africans did, as too the Americans.
“Israel has ignored these, whilst illegally taking finance from the US.
I’m not going to repeat them all, just give you a few”
Well I’m glad you’re not going to repeat them, that means I won’t have to feel compelled to read them. Israel doesn’t read to ‘illegally’ take money from the United States, the USA has every right to give money to whichever nation it damn well likes.
19. chris white
Recommended reading: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Case-Israel-Alan-Dershowitz/dp/0471679526/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&;s=books&qid=1196113407&sr=8-1
And Natalie Portman worked on it, and she’s ace.
20. Chris, Cymry Rydd
Jon; cheesy nob head? sorry- thought it meant cheesy crackers- apologies. The vagaries of language eh- especially languages you can’t speak and have to look up on google. Well between gaza and nobs head I don’t seem to be getting much right tonight.
mark: you fail to mention your sources, a big PHd student like you should know how to quote sources- start with basics- tomato, brown and work up from there. You accuse me of lying yet my sources include Hansard, Janes Defence, Jewish Students For Palestinian Rights, AI, Guardian, and Reuters, AP etc in reporting the murder of 14 year old Baha Al basha. With all your political craft and use of fine phrases, you cannot defend the indefensible- the Israeli Aggression Force’s murder of children. That’s the bottom line. Israel kills kids. And Jews aren’t evil- Jews who disobey the Torah may be. And if I want an opinion on politics Mark I’ll as Gwenllian, who has PHD whereas you don’t. So until stick your misplaced academic arrogance where the sun doesn’t shine ( and I don’t mean Merthyr).
21. Jon
Even when you supposedly apologise you have a dig at me. Whilst I may not be fluent in Welsh I know enough to get by. Considering you were trying to insult me your cheesy crackers translation doesn’t fit, hence the more vulgar translation. Even if google was used, it wouldn’t make the translation any less accurate. Let’s stick to English shall we?
22. Mark
“mark: you fail to mention your sources, a big PHd student like you should know how to quote sources- start with basics- tomato, brown and work up from there. You accuse me of lying yet my sources include Hansard, Janes Defence, Jewish Students For Palestinian Rights, AI, Guardian, and Reuters, AP etc in reporting the murder of 14 year old Baha Al basha.”
How can I cite evidence of something that hasn’t happened?
“With all your political craft and use of fine phrases, you cannot defend the indefensible- the Israeli Aggression Force’s murder of children.”
A child with a rifle can just as easily kill you as an adult with a rifle. I’m not trying to defend Israel, frankly I don’t give a shit who owns Israel/Palestine, but Israel is a pro-western, democratic and capitalist state surrounded by enemies so yes, I suppose I do sympathise more with her than any other nation in the region.
“That’s the bottom line. Israel kills kids.”
And the lesson here is that if you’re going to pick a fight with a well equipped and armoured force then you need to be armed with more than stones. Has it not occurred to you that it might be a good idea if Palestinian schoolchildren were told they should try attacking the Israelis?
“And if I want an opinion on politics Mark I’ll as Gwenllian, who has PHD whereas you don’t. So until stick your misplaced academic arrogance where the sun doesn’t shine ( and I don’t mean Merthyr).”
You do that. But the bottom line is Israel is the lord of Palestine and Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second is the Queen of Wales and, unfortunately for Her Majesty, that means that you’re her subject. That won’t be changing anytime soon either, boyo.
Want my advice, go sit right in front of City Hall, cover yourself in petrol and set yourself on fire as protest to the occupation of Wales. I’ll even supply you the matches.