Nothing makes me recoil like something that is obviously, simply and clearly the right thing to do. Any campaign that seems to be the realisation of morality in simple form generally makes me worried.
It’s not that I don’t like doing the right thing, I do. Contrary to popular belief I do have a sense of morality, although it is well hidden. The only problem is that after three years of studying politics one comes to realise that no easy choices really exist, only difficult compromises and complex situations. If everything was as simple as people are inclined to make them seem then the likelihood is that they would have already been done. Funny old thing but students aren’t the only ones with morals.
The crux of this little rant is fair trade. How fair can it be? It seems like one of those brilliant little things that is so patently right that it’s irresistible. Why would you not do it, a couple of extra pence, a nice tasty drink or food and the chance to assuage your frankly disgustingly middle class westernised conscience by helping a poor farmer off the poverty line for one more day? Everyone, as the maxim goes, is a winner.
Thing is, as I say, nothing can be that simple. Even something as innocuous and seemingly virtuous as fair trade has a host of critics, most of which nobody is really aware of. Everybody loves to embrace the simple idea that people might be able to make a difference and help others by doing their daily shop but the truth is that fair trade is just a novel way of allowing people to believe that they might be making a difference while creaming off a chunky profit for the rich western retailer and allowing essential underlying problems continue.
As anybody with a basic understanding of economics will know a guaranteed price above market value will encourage overproduction. Look at the results of the EU’s much maligned Common Agricultural Policy. Meat mountains and wine lakes, which might sound like a great way to improve walks in the country but are in fact a stunning way to waste public monies. Apparently, prices of raw agricultural commodities are already low because of oversupply. So essentially encouraging farmers to stop growing other crops which might be useful and concentrating on areas where they can get the best fair trade subsidies might not be best for those not caught by the fair trade banner as this excess production becomes dumped on the markets increasing supply and, therefore, lowering the price. More people on the poverty line.
I’m not one to say that fair trade is not a worthwhile cause, or that it isn’t possible to achieve a positive result but just that it is worth considering that there are negative implications for nearly everything that we can do. Bad things are probably happening just because you’re reading this.
Also, it gives me the chance to point out that, whilst fair trade is great and all, its going to take a state level solution to provide any lasting change. Free trade and an end to ridiculous protectionism like the CAP will need to be mastered before we can hope to help third world farmers. Extending protectionism is not the way forward. It almost never works when governments intervene in markets, this is just another example.
Most importantly, don’t be fooled by the simple solutions. The same could be said of anything that seems like the intuitively right thing to do, from local produce to recycling. There are always downsides, local produce for instance is just protectionism incognito, and it has been suggested by several studies recycling certain items might cost more and is more polluting than to just make new ones in the traditional manner. Fair trade is not perfect, but neither is anything. Knowing that doesn’t mean you have to stop doing whatever it is you believe in, or necessarily that there is anything wrong with it. I still buy some fairtrade items. Not thinking about the downsides though is verging on irresponsible.

1. Chris White
Spot on Dan.
Not only does Fair Trade discourage diversification into other crops, but it reduces the incentive to produce a quality product, and so productivity doesn’t increase. Fair Trade effectively pays peasant farmers to remain peasant farmers.
Just to add to what you’ve covered here… using farmers’ markets actually generates more food miles than going to a supermarket, because of supermarkets’ more efficient supply systems. And organic farming is less intensive than non-organic – it requires three times the amount of land – and so increases deforestation, removing rather a useful carbon sink.
And recycling produces more carbon emissions than sticking something in landfill. (And stuck in landfill it gives off methane, which accounts for 30% of all the UK’s renewable energy.)
But you knew that already ;)
2. Graeme Porteous
But surely that is not the case when taking into account retailers fly in fruit and veg from all around the world, or even worst flying, take for example, Brussels Spouts which are flown out of the Scotland to Poland so they can be trimmed and packed and then flown back again to the UK.
95% of the UK fruit is supplied from abroad and it is estimated that an average Sunday lunch travels 26,234 miles! This is utterly ridiculous.
I have been unhappy with this for a long time and have been a recent convert to Cardiff’s local farmers market and I am much happier for it.
Do we actually tap any landfill gases at the moment in the UK? Recycling isn’t just about reducing the emissions, but also about making use of the limited natural resource we have at the moment. The rotting food on the landfills could be put to better use as compost for organic produce and potentially cut greenhouse gas emission by 7%.
3. Mark
We do make use of landfill gas emission yes, but considering that the overwhelmingly biggest renewable contributor to the national grid comes from wind turbines that only produce 1.5% of our overall electricity needs you can begin to see just how insignificant the rest of renewable energy is.
I’ll buy what I want from wherever happens to be the most convenient and at the most reasonable price. I rather if the product I sought wasn’t made out of orphan children or required the destruction of ¼ of the rainforest to produce but, at the same time, if the ‘green’ alternative isn’t as nice, costs more or isn’t at the same shop then I wont lose any sleep when I don’t buy it.
4. chris
Mark, you would n’t loose sleep torturing children, because that’s exactly what you are doing if you don’t buy Fair Trade- condeming the children of poor peasant farmers to a life of untold hasrdiship and misery- all because you want the conveneince of consumer choice. I wonder what you would be saying if the boot was on the other foot?
5. Chris White
Graeme: you can save all the natural resources you like, but if the planet boils there’s not going to be many people here to use them. One problem at a time.
6. Graeme Porteous
Davies: please refrain from personal attacks. Mark isn’t torturing children by choosing what is convenience to him. Dan’s article points out Fair Trade isn’t going to solve all the problems, and in fact the concept itself brings up new problems. A complete change in the global consumer culture would be needed, something which blatantly isn’t going to happen.
7. Graeme Porteous
Chris: the way I see its all part of the same problem. Changing our throwaway society will help remove the dependence we have on our natural resources, encouraging greater investment in newer and greener technology. More and more people are beginning to think about the future and the trouble we are going to face ahead. Once the humans race get going, we can achieve marvellous innovations in science and technology to tackle these problems – I only fear we’ve left it too late.
8. Chris White
But that investment is happening anyway simply because companies can make money from it in a more-climate-change aware society.
Climate change is (we’re told) a far more immediate problem, and we must (we’re told) reduce emissions as much as possible as soon as possible. Recycling (except in the case of aliminium) creates emissions that are (for now) un-necessary.
9. Mark
Davies- If the boot was on the other foot I’m sure I’d be pretty pissed off, but it’s not. I want consumer choice, so does everyone else. Do I want “condeming the children of poor peasant farmers to a life of untold hasrdiship and misery” to be the result of buying all by favourite treats? No, obviously not, but if it does then too bad.
10. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd welsh republicans
Graeme: my attack on Mark was not personal, I apologise if it was seen that way. However, I have been accused of wanting to dress up with dragon suited welsh security agents and torture English people in an independent Cymru. Which is not true- I would never dress up as a dragon save for very special rare occassions. And anyway, as a high flying Gair Rhydd monkey why do you not leapt in to prevent the plethora of persoanl attacks on me? Unwashed, racist, sheep shagger, impotent, shrub basher are but a few that spring to mind.
Anyway, my points stands: which is preferable- to have less consumer choice and pay equitable rates to farmers, or to have consumer choice and pay rates that keep farmers children in gross poverty? I know what the majority of students in cardiff uni would prefer- that’s becasue on the whole they are a moral bunch who trulycare about others
11. Perri Lewis
Chris: it is not Graeme’s job to monitor this website. It is mine.
I have banned a number of people because of their personal attacks on you. If you, or anyone else, has complaints about the way you are being treated, you should contact me, not complain on this forum.
Perri, editor
12. Rids
Hey guys, nice to see someone other than Mr. Davies can cause controversy around here, glad to see the article sparked a discussion. Or rather, Geordie’s response to it!
I’d just like to point out that the reason that Cardiff Students would choose, and do choose, fair trade is that they may not have considered the consequences or the alternatives because, as i said in the article, it is just so intuitively nice. Who could disagree with fair trade? I mean, its got fair in the label, it’s gotta be good, right?
I’m not saying that all the alternatives are better, but some might be, so if it pleases you then look into it. If not, don’t. To the point that Mark is somehow torturing children and damning them to a miserable life, I’d just like to point out that this interpretation is a gross misrepresentation. He may not be going out of his way to improve it, but that does not make him a torturer. On top of which it’s not exactly like the fair trade movement is allowing third world children all to get a comprehensive education, is it? It’s just giving them a few extra pennies a week for working their little eight-year-old fingers to the bone. If you want to pull people out of poverty then a state solution is what is required, and that means a real sacrifice, serious public pressure and some extremely hard bartering, not an overpriced cup of coffee from Starbucks (who peel in most of the profits from said overpricing) while we all whinge to our mates about the fact that we should have bigger student loans.
Also, on an interesting topic that Geordie and Graeme raised, the reason i believe we don’t reclaim more methane from landfills is because of the sheer expense and inefficiency of doing so. Whether we should or not is not something I know enough about to comment on, but don’t let that stop you.
Have a good Easter guys, whether your eggs are Fair Trade or not.
13. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
Riddy: I never said Mark was a torturer, just that his attitude of “Tough shit” and “It’s not our problem” makes him quite a miserable excuse for a human being- but what else would you expect from a neo-liberal apologist for this so called system of crapitalism which hijacks the profit made by the wokers of the world and thus produces the need for fair trade. Like me, you are right in alot of things you say, especially the need for a state solution. This solution is obvious: socialism. We can start with fair trade in our own dear Union. That’s why I shall be continuing our Socialist Student campaign for a minimum wage of £8 per hour for student workers. I quote from our Newsletter, The Republican Sheep Y Pasg (Easter 2007):
A Cardiff University Professor, Phil Cooke, in a report for Jill Evans MEP, backs the policy of Cardiff Student Union past presidency candidate Christopher Trefor Davies, to raise the average wage of workers in Cymru. Cymru Rydd (Welsh Republican’s ) policy will increase the wages of low income workers in Cymru and lower the Poverty Ranking of Wales which sees the nation well behind Scotalnd, Ireland and the prosperous South East of England in terms of level of deprivation.
Says Chris “ Our call to increase wages in the student union to a minimum of £8 per hour for student union workers has the backing of the very University the Union is a constituent part of”
He continues “In the Great Hall of the SU, Republicans minimum wage policy was laughed out of the Hall by a minority of loud students. However, we originally campaigned successfully for a minimum wage and we were ridiculed during that campaign too. But we were proved to be right. This will be the case again. Now that we have the support of Cardiff University academics we shall pursue our policy to introduce a £8 per hour minimum wage into the SU. We ask, Why should Union officials such as the President, receive salaries nearing £20,000 per annum, whilst students working in Solus, the Union Shop, or The Taff are denied a salary at a decent threshold level? What’s good enough for the goose ( or the golden geese in this case) is good enough for the gander.”
“The SU has a turn over of millions per year, with millions in profit. This profit should be equitably redistributed to those students who actually work to earn that capital. It’s called social justice- that’s the type of SU I want to see. It’s the type of Cymru I want to live in. Perhaps when we adopt Republican Socialist policies we will see a greater engagement with more students voting and participating in union affairs- they will see the Union being pro-active for their actual needs and engage positively with us”
This is fairness in trade and it begins with those who work for us.
More than enough said. Sorry to ramble( a pasg y hapus i ti – happy easter to all of you.)
14. Mark
You haven’t got the backing of Cardiff University-you have the backing of one academic. Why can’t you stop misleading people?
Union officials get a salary of around £20,000 or less because they’re doing the top jobs in the Union. Bar staff get minimum wage because they’re the lowest of the low. Giving all staff £8/hr is simply unaffordable. This isn’t complex economic theory, I fail to see why you can’t grasp it.
Socialism is dead, accept it.
15. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
We do not mislead people Mark, we just see things from a different perspective. The revolution is coming,capitalism is dying, accept it.
The minumum wage is not unafforable and we now have the backing Plaid Cymru and a leading academic at caridff university.
We will fight to introfuce this policy into the union- it will raise the economic potenital of the union, increasing profitability and highering incomes for all union workers. And as for the student union executive getting more money cos they have the top jobs- that’s not a correct arguement. Why should they have more? The work they do is not as demanding as bar work- I know, I have done plenty of it in my time. bar work deserves more pay, union executive work less pay.There must be parity of wages- true equality for all. The payment system you espouse, is based on a neo-liberal out-working of the discredited English class system.
16. Jon
We do not mislead people Mark, we just see things from a different perspective
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Having the support of one academic, but claiming you have the support of the University is indeed misleading, it is not simply a different perspective. It seems to be a recurring theme in what you say, similar to your claims of being representative of the Welsh people, when election results would indicate you are clearly not.
it will raise the economic potenital of the union, increasing profitability and highering incomes for all union workers
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I am no economist, but surely that is a contradiction? How can you raise wages by 50% and increase profitability at the same time? They are not going to be doing anything different in work, and I doubt the methods of bringing revenue into the union are going to change that much either, so where is this new spurt of extra money going to come from that will not only offset the 50% wage increase, but also bring in the significant profit increase that the wage increase would justify?
I’m glad that there are people like Mark who continually point out the weaknesses and falseness of what is said by some people on this board. Yes, it can be a little tedious that most threads get turned into a duel between Mark and CTD, but I would rather that than people came onto here and believed some of the blatant crap that was written because no one had taken the time to show it so.
17. Perri Lewis
Just to clarify, the sabbatical members of the executive (remember that the executive is made up of sabbatical and non-sabbaticals) do not get paid £20,000, we get paid around £16,500. This figure is set every three years by an external university body.
The reason we get paid more than bar staff is not because we work harder than them (although you come up and see us during freshers’ week/elections/marching in London against fees/a gair rhydd deadline morning etc and I think even you might agree how hard we work), it’s because we have a significantly higher level of responsibility.
We are the board of directors of Cardiff Union Services Limited and the board of trustees of the charity Cardiff Students’ Union. We are legally responsible for both organisations anf the way they spend their money. In a very basic sense, if something goes wrong, we go to jail.
I am also named publisher of gair rhydd. Again, I have a massive level of legal responsibility and the day-to-day things I have to get right make my job very different to that of a member of the bar team. If they give someone a cider rather a lager, they might get a bit of mouth from a disgruntled student. If I print even one word that I shouldn’t I could get the Union sued and I would be the one to face prison.
This is the reason we get paid £16,500 and the bar staff do not.
18. Mark
“We do not mislead people Mark, we just see things from a different perspective.”
No, you lie. That’s not a different perspective.
“The revolution is coming,capitalism is dying, accept it.”
The revolutions been, gone and failed. Did you not see people rising up and overthrowing Socialism in 1990? Even here in the west the Labour Party has seen the light and realised that to get elected they must turn right of centre.
“The minumum wage is not unafforable”
Small busineeses in general and Cardiff SU in specific simply can not afford to pay people over the odds for menial work. You saying they can does not change this basic fact.
“We will fight to introfuce this policy into the union”
You mean you’ll bitch, whine andd be ignored as per usual?
“it will raise the economic potenital of the union, increasing profitability and highering incomes for all union workers.”
So you really think if you increase wages while decreasing profits by reducng prices you’ll increase the profitability of the SU? That’s really, really funny.
“And as for the student union executive getting more money cos they have the top jobs- that’s not a correct arguement.”
No, its not an argument-it’s a statement of fact.
“Why should they have more?”
Because, as it’s been pointed out, they are the ones in a posistion of ultimate responsibility.
“The work they do is not as demanding as bar work- I know, I have done plenty of it in my time.”
No, you don’t know-because when you tried to find out only 100 people were stupid enough to vote for you. Everyones done bar work at some point, including myself, its nothing to be proud of and you should have realised that its low paid because it’s a menial, unskilled job. You simply don’t deserve getting over the minimum wage for doing it.
“There must be parity of wages- true equality for all.”
That’s a very retarded argument. You’re saying that someone who has been in University for 5 years becoming a Doctor deserves the same pay as someone who decided to leave school at 16 with no qualifacations and become a cleaner? If that was the case why would anyone better themselves?
“The payment system you espouse, is based on a neo-liberal out-working of the discredited English class system.”
No, its based on free will and free market forces. You’re system is based upon a redundent system of economic theory that failed every time.
19. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
when election results would indicate you are clearly not.
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In fact my comrade, the elction results were a great victory for Cymru Rydd. e now have aclear mandate to represent a minority of students who realised that only a free socialist Republic of Cymru will bring true prosperity. Our University has many International students who voted for me, as well as representatives of the Palestinian Solidarity Society, Muslims brothers, animal rights activists as well as Welsh patriots and our English friends who defend our right to nationhood and freedom.
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economic potenital of the union,
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If you raise the wages of student workers you raise the amount of money recycled in the union. See Prof Phil Cookes report which supports my and Plaid Cymru’s arguement.
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blatant crap that was written
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It’s not blatant crap- its the answer to all of the social and politcal ills that dear old Cymru faces from the imperialist oppression and occupation of the English State/Crown. You have been subject to the propaganda of the stae which espouses militarianism, neoliberal economics which keep the majority in poverty whilst the elite in a disportionate income ( ie our executive) who claim more responsibility for the higer fees, when in a free socialist republic of Wales we will give to those according to thier need and take from those according to thier gifts and abilities
Mark: I do not say that there should be equality of income in the republic as a general rule, but that there should be a minimum wage in the student union- this is fareness in trade. Also, there should be a minimum wage in society.
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redundent system of economic theory
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No, not redundant at all, but very much alive and kickung you just have to look at Central America and the way in which it is crying out for socialism- Cuba, Venuvela ( can’t spell it sorry). Brazil, to name just a few. The People, unfree, will alway cry out for the the equality of social democracy.
20. Jon
In fact my comrade, the elction results were a great victory for Cymru Rydd. e now have aclear mandate to represent a minority of students who realised that only a free socialist Republic of Cymru will bring true prosperity. Our University has many International students who voted for me, as well as representatives of the Palestinian Solidarity Society, Muslims brothers, animal rights activists as well as Welsh patriots and our English friends who defend our right to nationhood and freedom.
———————————-
From what I have heard, you received 100 votes from some 30,000? (apologies if the number of total votes is incorrect). I can’t fault your optimism, but isn’t it just a tad delusional to call that a victory? Also, and I’m taking this from this and another thread, it seems from what you’ve said that the majority of votes you received were from international students? Surely if this is the case, you realise that they don’t and probably never will represent the Welsh people you and your party claim to be representative of?
It’s not blatant crap- its the answer to all of the social and politcal ills that dear old Cymru faces from the imperialist oppression and occupation of the English State/Crown.
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Yes, it IS. Cymru is neither imperialistically oppressed or occupied by the English State/Crown. Anyway, I’m not going to restate the plethora of reasons for this already provided in several other threads. I’m not attacking you here, but your definitions of oppression and occupation seem to be a bit out of whack sorry.
You have been subject to the propaganda of the stae which espouses militarianism, neoliberal economics which keep the majority in poverty whilst the elite in a disportionate income ( ie our executive) who claim more responsibility for the higer fees, when in a free socialist republic of Wales we will give to those according to thier need and take from those according to thier gifts and abilities
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I know that if I worked my butt off to earn a living, I would be very unhappy if you were to then take away a large sum of that money to give to someone else who hadn’t worked for it. I imagine most people would feel the same, and you would end up facing a revolution against you from we Welsh.
there should be a minimum wage in the student union- this is fareness in trade. Also, there should be a minimum wage in society
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I do believe there is a national minimum wage, and has been for some time now
21. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
I can’t fault your optimism, but isn’t it just a tad delusional to call that a victory
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It was 100 votes out of about 4200 70% of whom were English.
it was a victory for several reasons1. our party for the first time secured a mandate to represent students. Remember these students voted for a Free Socialist Republic of Cymru, and whilst we are in the minority My party and I will ensure that these republicans have a strong voice in the student union. Further we had the support from international students who see clearly that Cymru is being colonised. We also had the support of the palestinian solidarity society and Muslim brothers and sister to whom we pledge to continue the institutional islamaphobia in the SU and University.2.It was also a victory because we recruited many students to our Party and will be launching National Student Welsh Republicans during the Freshers Fayre.
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Cymru is neither imperialistically oppressed or occupied by the English State/Crown.
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Jon, Cymru is being slowly colonised and anglised by the English who buy homes in the Welsh Heartlands and who then refuse to learn welsh- thus detroying the welsh community. Many holiday homes are ex farms- I can take you to my fathers farm and show you exactly what I mean. ALso, the brave young volunteers of Cymdeithas Yr iaith Cymraeg (The Welsh Language Society) are in prison even now for fighting for the right to promote and protect Welsh. The welsh language belongs to all welsh people and our english friends who choose to learn it, not just to those who speak it.
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you would end up facing a revolution against you from we Welsh.
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No we wouldn’t face a revolution because our policies would raise the standard of living for all the pporly paid workers of Cymru. They would have a minimum wage income of £8 per hour. Our carefully produced fiscal policy has the backing of Cardiff University Professor Phil Cooke as well as Plaid Cymru. Some students oppose this policy but in reality the SU could well afford to make these payment. Also, Perri says that the Union Exec get more money because of the responsibilty they have- but what about the non sabbs who only get the minimum wage? They too have a higher degree of responsibilty, apparrently above that of so called unskilled bar work.
22. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
Above should read : we have the support of Muslim brothers and sisters for who we pledge to FIGHT institutional islampahobia in the student’s union and the university. Sorry for the obvious mistake! :) Chris
23. Lee Macaulay
Also, Perri says that the Union Exec get more money because of the responsibilty they have- but what about the non sabbs who only get the minimum wage?
Just to clarify, the reason the non sabbs only get the minimum wage is because they have less responsibility. The non sabbs are not directors or trustees of the Union as a charity or a business. It goes without saying as well that they do less work than a sabb (or should be they have a course to be doing too).
The non sabbs do have a higher degree of responsibility than ordinary members of the Union though.
For example, the Xpress Radio Station Manager has to run a radio station and the new Heath Campus officer will be the main point of contact for the SU up at the Heath.
However, in both cases, gair rhydd Editor and Education and Welfare officer will be partly, if not considerably, responsible if something goes wrong (i.e. Xpress broadcasts without a licence)
At the end of the day, if anything goes wrong at Cardiff Students’ Union the buck stops with a sabbatical officer.
24. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
Thanks Lee that’s helpful.
25. Mark
1.It was only 100 votes. You don’t have a mandate to represent students, you have no students to represent because you weren’t elected and if you weren’t elected then you cannot, by definition, have a mandate.
2.The 100 people who voted for you didn’t vote for an Independent Wales-this was a student election and the constitutional nature of the principality had nothing to do with it, they voted for you because they were stupid enough to believe you could deliver cheaper prices in the Union and/or a higher minimum wage or simply because some students always vote for the twat in the silliest costume.
3.Wales is not being colonised, Wales and England are part of the same nation and have been for almost 500 years. You cannot, by definition, colonise your own nation.
4.If you had the support of the Palestinian Society, the Islamic Society, International Students, Socialists and native Welsh students then surely you’d have polled more than a tiny 100 votes? I suspect you just had the support of a few fellow idiots.
5.Many Welsh people refusing to learn Welsh, 75% of us in fact, and it’s not because of English people buying holiday homes here, it’s simply because English is far more useful. So if three quarters of Welsh people refusing to learn Welsh who reside here permanently you cant exactly expect an English family who only spend a few weeks a year here to learn it, can you?
6.Many holiday homes are former farms because farming in Wales, like the rest of the UK, is inefficient and uncompetitive compared with pretty much everywhere else. It’s no big lose to us that a few rather rubbish smallholders went bust.
7.The “brave young volunteers of Cymdeithas Yr iaith Cymraeg” are in prison for commiting a crime, usually one of a violent nature, not because they spoke, defended or promoted peace. This is yet another example of you supporting terrorists and criminals.
8.You wouldn’t have the support of the population because your economic policies are nonsense. Wales recieves several Billion pounds in what is tantamont to economic aid from London each year. Without that Wales would not be able continue with the investment in health and social services currently being undertaken, much less the as yet unspecified larger investment you think would occur. And don’t be thinking that money from London would be replaced with money from the EU, an independent Wales could be keot outside the Union since London can bloc any new appliocants for membership, which also means, incidentally, all that money currently coming from Brussels to aid underdeveloped Wales would dry up to. Though all that is academic because nobody in Wales really wants indepedence, if people were serious about it and the idea had popular support then its unlikely that someone like yu would be the Chairman of your party, they’d be able to get some decent instead.
26. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
Like you?
27. Mark
No, I’m not a traitor.
28. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
You are a traitor to the nation of Wales and i don’t know why you have such attraction and loyalty to a foreign power that has raped, pillaged and continues to colonise and occupy your motherland. Oh yes! That’s right- it’s because you ARE a traitor- how silly of me to forget. Your opinion of me doesn’t count in the least- the only opinion that counts is the hundred or so students who voted for me and a free wales in the election, which I now have a mandate to represent, as well as the 34,000 who voted Cymru Rydd in the last Welsh Assembly Government elections. I shall be fighting hard to ensure the voices of ordinary working class people, disabled people,muslims (who are subject to the institutional islamphobia of the students union and uni), international students and gay people are heard above the faint hum of your neo-liberal waffling and the liberal democratic miss-mash that passes for the local government of this ancient and noble city of cardiff. Fe godwn ni eto!
29. Perri Lewis
Chris: Can you elaborate exactly how the Students’ Union is islamaphobic?
To say that is to criticise the sabbatical officers, the staff and the students of such a thing and I firmly believe that you are wrong.
30. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
I’d be pleased to elaborate Perri, and once I have explained it you you will see its quite simple. Firstly the NUS Cymru and UK is islamaphobic in its policies. It has introduced a policy that says any condemnation of the Zionist State of Israel is Anti-semitic. In fact it is a device, a cloak, to cover up the ongoing atrocities that are being perpetrated on the nation of Palestine. Since most palestininas are muslims this is an actual example of islamaphobic policy. This attitude also filtered down to the AGM where we saw repeated attempts by pro-Jewish religious nuts to drown out the reasonable pleas of support from Cardiff University Palestinian Solidarity Society. Only cardiff university’s student union could so soundly fail to protect the aspirations of nationalist minorites in small nations like Palestine and Wales. Then there is the issue of INSITUTIONALISED islampahobia, this is not to criticise the sabbatical officers or any consitutent part of the Union, but as a whole the system discriminates ( as does the whole of society) against our Muslim sisters and brothers. This can be no greater seen than in the debaucle that surrounds the enforced praying under stairs that many muslim international and home students are forced to do. When they complianed they were subject to a barrage of criticisms from some students who even called for a BNP Vote on the gairrhydd.com forum. Together with the university this is an example of institutionalised islampahobia- why are there several bars for students to get drunk in but no decent prayer room? Will prompt action on this matter be taken by the incoming executive? Many of us hope this will be so.
31. Chris White
“Firstly the NUS Cymru and UK is islamaphobic in its policies. It has introduced a policy that says any condemnation of the Zionist State of Israel is Anti-semitic.”
Even if such a policy existed (which I’m not going to believe unless you supply evidence), NUS Wales and Cardiff University Students’ Union are not the same thing, and to conflate the two is a demonstration of either profound stupidity or flagrant mendacity. In either case, blaming CUSU for an NUS Wales policy is idiotic.
“In fact it is a device, a cloak, to cover up the ongoing atrocities that are being perpetrated on the nation of Palestine. Since most palestininas are muslims this is an actual example of islamaphobic policy.”
No, you monstrous buffoon, only if the “ongoing atrocities” were perpetuated solely against Muslims would it be Islamophobic. Nationalist, yes; racist, probably. Islamophobic? Nope.
“why are there several bars for students to get drunk in but no decent prayer room?”
Because (a) the Union bars are a profit-making enterprise, and (b) reallocating a Union facility so that it is just for Muslim use would in fact be stealing it from everybody else. Frankly I can’t see why they can’t just book the Aneurin Bevan room on the top floor of the Union at the appropriate times—there’s even shower facilities and suchlike along the corridor in Xpress which would probably suffice for pre-prayer ablutions.
Davies, how in Hades did you get into University? You’ve got the critical thinking ability of an Elk.
32. Chris White
Bollocks.
Graeme, delete the duplicate post please.
33. Mark
“You are a traitor to the nation of Wales and i don’t know why you have such attraction and loyalty to a foreign power that has raped, pillaged and continues to colonise and occupy your motherland. Oh yes! That’s right- it’s because you ARE a traitor- how silly of me to forget.”
I’m going to put this as simply as I possibly can, Wales and England are the same nation. No ifs, no buts, no question. We are the same. I’ll let that sink in. Now, while you get your head around that try thinking this one over; when was the last time Wales, with the current borders, was a single, unfied nation? Well the honest answer is that Wales, as we know it today, has never been independent. Before the English came along Wales was just a bunch of tribes making war on each other. Let that sink in. Wales is an English creation. How doesthat make you feel?
“Your opinion of me doesn’t count in the least- the only opinion that counts is the hundred or so students who voted for me and a free wales in the”
Let’ be sensible, they voted for a tit dressed as a dragon, that doesn’t give you a mandate to do anything.
“34,000 who voted Cymru Rydd in the last Welsh Assembly Government elections.”
34,000 out of a few Million. That’s really, really pathetic.
“I shall be fighting hard to ensure the voices of ordinary working class people, disabled people,muslims (who are subject to the institutional islamphobia of the students union and uni), international students and gay people are heard above the faint hum of your neo-liberal waffling and the liberal democratic miss-mash that passes for the local government of this ancient and noble city of cardiff.”
Why is it that Socialists feel only they can speak for people and that people need people like you to speak for them in the first place? I’ve yet to see the Islamic Society publically ally themselves to you. Or the LGBT socioety for that matter. I wonder why that is? Is it because they’ve never asked for your support and want it as much as the bubonic plague? There’s an easy way to demonstrate it-go and ask them. Better yet, Perri, would you care to ask your international student and LGBT society colleagues what they make of this claim? I don’t think it’s fair that Davies should be making dubious claims in their name without consent.
Your attitide towards the Jewish people and the State of Israel is nothing short of vomit inducing. Answer the board this one simple question; Do you think that Israel has a right to exist as a nation state within her internationally recognised borders?
34. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
Chis White: I got into university the same way as you (possibly) by excellent A level results. What irks you so is that you know my arguments hold water. And if anyone has the foresight on an elk then its you with your proposterousness. And it is islamaphobic,idiot, because Isreali Muslims are denied equality of opportunity in the very Zionist state that they are citizens of- what do you say to that? Rather totally demolished your arguement doesn’t it, Chris? And the fact that you don’t know about theis policy just shows you up to be completely ignorant. There is a recurring theme amongs posters such as you and Muck that if you are unable to attack my emminently reasonable policies then you indulged in innuendo (usually of a sheep nature) as well as insults like me having the critical ability of an elk.
Mark: you are just stupid or ignorant or both. Israel, should it conform to international treaties, may then have some sort of right to exist,but at the moment the APartheid Wall is actively stealing land from the Palestinian people of that ancient oppressed nation. So much for adherence to international boundaries. And before you predictably harp on about it being a defence wall, don’t forget that Zionist settlers are buiding colonies well into Palestinian territtories. I admire the work of the LGBT, Muslim Society and others but have never claimed to speak for them, only to speak up to support them from a republican perspective. Therein lies the vast difference. You try your policies of divide and rule Muck but it just won’t wash. And your attitude to those who voted for me is nothing short of disgusting- 100 people, although an oppressed minority, still deserve effective representation, which welsh republicans will give them. As one palestinian said “it’s about time we had some politics in the Students Union”. How true!
35. Mark
Israel “may” have a right to exist if they pander to the very people who are determined to see the destruction of her in the first place? How very noble of you, you anti-Semitic national-socialist shit.
You have claimed to speak for Muslims, Welsh speakers, Palestinians, homosexuals, international students and the disabled and yet you’ve singularly failed to demonstrate that these groups actually want your support. Given that only a handful of people actually voted for you then the obvious conclusion is that you don’t have the support of anyone but a few diehard socialist morons and the inevitable number of students who voted for the idiot in the silliest costume.
Lets make this clear-again-you do not have a mandate to speak for anyone, you weren’t elected, you came last. Isn’t it about time that you accepted your unpopularity?
36. Chris White
“And it is islamaphobic,idiot, because Isreali Muslims are denied equality of opportunity in the very Zionist state that they are citizens of- what do you say to that? Rather totally demolished your arguement doesn’t it, Chris?”
No, because it applies to all non-Jews, not just Muslims. So it can’t, by definition, be Islamophobic, as it’s not just against Muslims. Besides which, there are Muslim members of the Knesset.
“And if anyone has the foresight on an elk then its you with your proposterousness.”
I said that you have the critical thinking ability of an Elk, nothing about foresight. Perhaps you should read what other posters have written before pronouncing upon it?
“There is a recurring theme amongs posters such as you and Muck that if you are unable to attack my emminently reasonable policies then you indulged in innuendo (usually of a sheep nature) as well as insults like me having the critical ability of an elk.”
Firstly, I’ve never made any sheep references. Secondly, I did attack your policies; I happened to sprinkle it with a touch of ad hominem because almost everything you write is frustratingly idiotic. You, on the other hand, haven’t responded to my point that CUSU can’t be blamed for an NUS Cymru policy. Thirdly, complaining about insults while referring to Mark as “Muck” rather undermines your point.
I’ve just read that NUS policy, actually. It clearly states that it will dismiss criticism of Israel only where that criticism is not also directed at other states behaving similarly. And frankly, criticising Israel while not criticising any other country occupying another nation is either anti-semitic, or “reverse racism” in that it expects better conduct of a Europeanised “white” nation than any other.
37. Jon
I always find it amusing coming onto this board to see the latest spat of insults and arguments.
What amuses me most though is CTD’s attempts to make a point; then have a go at someone else; and then fail miserably at, or simply ignore, validating and supporting his claims. I can’t fault his effort in supporting his cause, but for a supposedly well educated and aged man, much of what he says I would expect to hear from an uneducated and annoying young teen. It doesn’t say much for an elder person when they resort to childish tactics of goading and derogatory names.
Anyway, boys and girls and anyone claiming to be something inbetween, I think you should calm down a bit
38. christopher trefor davies, cymru rydd
Jon: thank you very much for your insights- I’m sure we’ll take them all on board. Once again we see people ignoring the substance of my points and (over)indulging in insults.
Chris White: I’m sure you’re not really an idiot ( afterall you won award for something- toilet training dogs was it?)but even you must realise that there are Muslim members of the knesset just to placate the Anglo-Saxon American Coalition which provides more support to Israel than it does to the whole of Africa put together. So, in your view, its ok to condemn the Zionist entity of Israel if you condemn the US/UK for their terrorist occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan- well, that’s fine by me!
Mark: I am not a national-socialist simply because I condemn Israel and the asociate religious freaks that seem to emminate from the woodwork whenever anyone tries to have the resemblence of a reasonable discussion of the Zionist entity’s violation of the rights of poor Palestinian families.
39. Perri Lewis
Just to let you all know that I will not tolerate the insults that have been exchanged.
This forum will be closed shortly because the comments are not longer related to the article.
Perri