We all know that the AGM can be dull. I attended last year purely due to the fact I was on the committee of a society, so when I was asked to anchor Xpress Radio’s live coverage of the event I was extremely sceptical of how the other anchors and I could broadcast a remotely interesting live show. Bar babbling on in a monotone fashion for three hours about who was speaking next, I couldn’t see much potential for high drama.
However, when I did some pre-AGM research on the motions that were to be debated, there was one in particular that stood out: ‘Student & Teachers, Unite and Fight!’ The fact that it was proposed by a member of the Socialist Students set alarm bells ringing, but on the surface it looked like a good idea. It talked about confronting job cuts at Cardiff University, getting better funding for education and even increasing the minimum wage to £8 an hour (a bit utopianist but good-natured surely?)
The ‘Youth Fight for Jobs’
motion had the support of some unions, and even a Labour MP (John McDonnell, chair of the Socialist Campaign Group). Who in their right mind would oppose such a common sense bill? I would.
The bill posed as a non-partisan drive to help out students and staff at Cardiff University, but in reality it was an attempt to push through a Socialist party agenda right under the noses of the student body. Under point four of ‘the AGM resolves’ was the resolution ‘to support the Youth Fight for Jobs demonstration on the February 17’ – one of the only concrete proposals in the entire motion.
Michaela Neild, Academic and University Affairs Officer, bravely took to the floor to mount a rebuttal of some of the motion, in particular that of the proposed £8 an hour wage, which would clearly cripple an already wounded economy. Edmund Schluessel then went on to talk about a brilliant motion that would help students and lecturers achieve a perfect education system at no cost to anyone. It’s a shame that this motion he was talking about was nothing like what he had actually proposed.
So what is Youth Fight For Jobs? Google it and see the kind of hits you get. Not only is it a Socialist march but it has some rather unsavoury characters in charge. Organiser Ben Robinson claims that it’s ‘open to all young people, apart from scabs and fascists. Many young people in the leadership of the campaign are socialists, including myself’. Charming rhetoric from one of the leaders of an organisation that Mr Schluessel tried to sneakily gain university support for in what was otherwise a good motion, ruined by a Socialist power-grab.
The question isn’t your political views (for the record I’m hardly a rabid right-winger), but whether we politicise our Union and, if so, whether we do it an underhand manner or an open fashion.
Thankfully the AGM saw sense and clearly voted the motion down, but it raises the question, should we let motions onto the floor unless they clearly state their true intentions?
1. Lianne Wilson
Excellent article and on a topic which, as you say, tends to slip under the radar.
There are a couple of groups like this in the Union which try to ride party politics in on the back of non-political proposals. it’s sneaky, underhanded and distasteful.
Youth Fight for Jobs is an organisation that is often thrown in, one with radical and unrealistic (where would all that money come from??) ideas, many of which are really nothing to do with the Union.
Either way, I’m very, very glad that someone at gair rhydd has noticed this sort of behaviour and has made a bit of a stand about it.
Thing is, of course you’re a rabid right-winger, you’re not a socialist! That seems to be all it takes to be called that.
2. Rachel Simons
I disagreed with the motion simply because I think it’s important for the Union to remain autonomous from all political campaigns but I am concerned that members of staff who are threatened by job cuts do not think that the Union does not stand with them.
As a Unionist the members of staff threatened by these cuts have my full support.
3. Stuart Quinn-Harvie
Good gods! Nice one, let’s leave politics out of unions shall we? Don’t want politics in there.
Do you have the faintest clue where your lovely cutesy cozy non political union came from?
Oh yeah. Socialists.
4. Rachelle Simons
Stuart: I completely agree that Unions as a concept are a political and come from a strong Unionist background but you can’t tell me than an SU functions as a Union in all ways now.
I believe the Union should represent the workers that work inside the SU, the workers of the university and the students with all the passion and committment as a normal Union. Nevertheless, you can’t ignore the fact that most students join up to the Union out of habit/desire to use the facilities and may not be socialists or not want to use the Union AS a Union. I’m a member of Unite but that was a conscious decision and I looked at which Union I wanted to join, paid my money and renew it out of a political belief that Unions are important, not because I’m working (except in the holiday) at the moment. That is quite different to most freshers rocking up to their first session at Solus or the Harry Potter society.
I do think you have to respect that. There are a massive number of students in our Union and they can’t all be expected to share the same views of a different organisation. So, what I’m saying is that I would have supported a motion that committed the Union to protecting jobs, but not one that committed it to a range of political beliefs decided by an outside party (most of which I share lol)
5. Ross Saunders
How is arguing for something in a public meeting “sneaking” anything past anybody? Seems pretty honest and straightforward to me.
Rachelle’s right that student unions are less politcal at the moment than they have been but unless that changes billions of pounds will be cut from universities in the next couple of years. Not everyone will want to immerse themselves in every detail but fighting to save good quality education and decent jobs is something everyone would back.
With that in mind, it’s a shame that the opponents of Edmund’s motion elected to undermine support for a united staff-student campaign against education cutbacks by starting a whispering campaign that has a whiff of the McCarthy era about it.
Why don’t they (and the editors of Gair Rhydd) take up the arguments Ed actually raised instead and explain to students why they’ll have to endure a poorer quality educationa with worse job prospects at the end of it and why nothing can be done?
Edmund’s motion argued for support for the Youth Fight for Jobs protest at the Assembly on the 17th March against job cuts and workplace closures like those at Universities in Wales. If it’s political to do that then perhaps getting political would be a good idea for those young people who will otherwise enjoy a worse standard of living, a longer working life on shorter pay and fewer opportunities than their parents.
The Youth FIght for Jobs Campaign is a trade-union initiative, not a political one. It’s backed by three national trade unions and hundreds of members of every other trade union in Britain, including prominent members of Unite, mentioned above. The supporters are – again – openly published here: http://www.youthfightforjobs.com/current . Amongst them is indeed the Socialist Party (of which I’m a member) but what’s wrong with that? The question which should be asked, in my view, is why aren’t more political parties signed up? Why are they so desperate to demonstrate to big business that they’ll cut education and public services to pay for the bankers’ bonuses? This is where the real deceit is – the sleight of hand that puts our, public, tax money in the pockets of people who made their millions playing the economy like a casino.
Edmund acts like a real socialist – campaigning to build a mass campaign of young people to fight for their interests. He did it not behind their backs and not “under their noses” (that is, without their noticing it) but in front of their faces. The reason socialists like Edmund and Ben Robinson are at the head of campaigns like this is because they’re the most serious about tackling these problems.
6. Katie
It’s odd that people are complaining about politics being brought into the union when the issue is a political one. Reading the article and some of the comments I am sensing the issue is not that Edmund brought politics into the discussion, but that the political party his campaigns are affiliated with is the Socialist Party.
From what I understand, this was a genuine attempt from Edmund to put forward motions that would better the lives of the students of Cardiff. The reason it was met with such contempt was not because the motions were bad, but because they came from a Socialist. Ironically, those who have a problem with that are putting personal political views before the students best interests!
You have unfairly judged Edmunds motives here and if it were me I would be pretty wounded by comments calling me “sneaky” and accusing me of having some kind of secret agenda.
How callous.
7. Jack Price
Maybe I’m missing the point a little but it certainly seems, as others have said, that your problem isn’t with the proposals as such, but with the people proposing it, which seems a little off to me. I mean, what else was your stunning revelation that a campaign for more jobs and a free at the point of use education system comes from socialists and other assorted left-wingers meant to achieve? It’s hardly a state secret that lefties tend to talk in such terms, let’s face it – frankly your article would have been a whole lot more surprising if the twist was that Edmund belongs to the Tories and Youth Fight For Jobs are secretly pushing a Thatcherite agenda onto the poor helpless SU, who do not according to you understand that a political proposal may have political undertones. It’s not ‘slipping it under the radar’ if the motion didn’t explicitly say ‘THIS GROUP IS FULL OF LEFTIES’ and given the above and that Edmund is well-known as the leader of the Socialist group I think arguing that anyone tried to push socialism onto the union in secret is disingenuous at best.
For the record: I am a member of the socialist students but I am not active by any stretch of the imagination and my response would be exactly the same if someone was outraged at a right-wing motion being presented to the union on these grounds.
8. Jack Fielding
‘Michaela Neild bravely took to the stage’. That made me laugh. Failed to mention her lobbying Labour students before the motion was even made, in order to defeat it. That sounds political! Sounds like Gair Rhyyd have a problem with people standing up and fighting, if they happen to be Socialist. Plus get your facts straight. The bill didn’t call for a minimum wage. The sooner you report facts and the truth, then the sooner I’ll respect your opinion.
9. Jack Fielding
Solution to the £8 an hour. You say it would cripple the economy. Why not ban banker’s bonuses, and re-distribute wealth or chase up the hundreds of millions a year that the rich avoid in tax
but that would be far too left-wing and scary wouldn’t it?
10. Lianne Wilson
Ross: Oh, please. It was the political equivalent of that bit in The Simpsons when Homer tries to buy the illegal fireworks: “Yeah, give me one of those porno magazines, a bottle of Old Harper, a package of condoms, a box of tampons, andsomeillegalfireworks, and one of those disposable enemas, make it two.”
Incidentally, “whiff of the McCarthy era”? For crying out loud, McCarthyism jailed hundreds and caused thousands to lose their jobs, removed the right to think and speak independently and critically and investigated thousands for ‘subversion’ and ‘deviancy’. This, however, is an article expressing a dislike of a political motion in a student AGM. Hardly the same.
You say YFFJ isn’t a political organisation, have you looked at its signatories page properly? It’s at the bottom so you might miss it, but the “supporting organisations and connected campaigns” are Day-Mer Youth, Turkish and Kurdish Football Federation (run by Day-Mer Youth), Youth against Racism in Europe, Campaign to Defeat Fees (run by Socialist Students), International Socialist Resistance, Socialist Students, Solidarity (Scotland’s socialist movement) and the Socialist Party. That’s five socialist organisations out of eight there.
Incidentally, I don’t believe you’re a member of the Socialist Party. You didn’t mention the phrase “fat cat bankers” once.
11. Jamie
‘Sounds like Gair Rhyyd have a problem with people standing up and fighting, if they happen to be Socialist.’
Sounds like someone’s keen to see a baseless conspiracy…
12. Tom
Ross its sneaky when you say you deny that your supporting youth fight for jobs in any way when one of the points in the motion called for supporting their demonstration. I was one of the people doing the radio coverage with Chris and while it may surprise you we actually did our research and from what we discovered i’d have opposed it regardless of who proposed it and what if any political affiliation they had. Also as much as an £8 an hour minimum wage appeals to all of us, there is a certain need to be practical, we’re just coming out of a recession and the last thing we need is to encourage big business to throw their toys out the pram by trying to force insane demands upon them, we can’t just ban bankers bonus’s because you can’t legally cap someones income, if we do it to the bankers you set a dangerous precedent for the future where employers would be able to cite that decision as a means to cap employees wages in some way and surely thats the precise opposite of what your campaigning for? p.s try reading Rawls on distributive justice and note that his argument still allows for inequality, plus he talks of ideal theory, i’m certain all of us can agree that the current financial and social circumstances are far from ideal
13. Rachelle Simons
On Michaela, I am a member of Labour Students and I voted against it. However, I sat with the other LS and four people voted FOR the motion, two against the motion (inc. me) and one abstained.
So I’m afraid you’re wrong about that.
14. Josh
The economy isn’t serving anyone but the rich, real wages have been declining since the 1970s and inequality has been growing at an for decades. Economic growth now stands for how much more money the rich are making and economic decline stands for job cuts for the less rich. The rich are in a win/win situation, the less rich are in a lose/lose one.
Maybe you should write an article espousing the benefits of this great system rather than claiming that a fairer minimum wage would ‘cripple the economy’. Unrestrained casino capitalism and wholesale financialisation and have already crippled the economy; try reading the Economist instead of the Telegraph or Times, which, by the way, also don’t ‘clearly state their true intentions’ – as mouth-pieces for the neo-liberal oligarchs that are running this country into the ground.
15. Sam Coates
This article was lazy and makes outrageous accusations about Edmund’s integrity based purely on his political affiliations which he has always been honesst about. It is doing exactly what it in fact accuses Edmund of – being underhand and having a secret agenda to push a particular view.
I think the reference to YFFJ was a mistake because it made the debate about the good or bad aspects of that campaign rather than what the motion was actually about. Someone tried to remove that part as an amendment but 50 people were not willing to even hear the case! I spoke to Edmund and he was happy to have the motion passed without any reference to YFFJ.
AGM should have allowed a vote to remove the main bone of contention, then we may well have had a policy to support our lecturers, which is the right thing to do. At the moment we have no policy and no campaign which leaves us open to attacks on our education.
16. Tom
Was that dig about reading the times/telegraph aimed at me? If so guess again, i’m one of those dangerous liberal democrats you hear so much about. I’m all in favour of eventually establishing a higher minimum wage, along with scrapping tuition fees, taxing bonus’s and all those other slightly lefty things. But I’m also a realist and right now I accept that these things aren’t practical, they’re noble goals but right now an £8 minimum wage would if anything cost jobs, companies wouldn’t willingly spend the extra so they’d downsize instead, morally right, not in the slightest, but would it happen, you betcha. Its a fact of life and I think if given the choice between having a job and being paid £5.80 an hour or having an £8 an hour minimum wage but being out of work cause your employer fired you to cover the costs most people will choose the former.
17. Heledd
I was really dissaponted by this article, its written by someone who doesent really know what theyre writing about, the venom towards “socaialsm” in this article i think is fear of the unkown and baseless also i cant possibly respect this persons opinion since they got facts wrong. The AGM itself was a dissapointment, half of the pepole next to me hadent read the motion and siad what we had to do was put our hands up when evrybody else does, it cant blaim to represent what the students want. Also the welsg on powerpoint was shown up in bits and in the agenda they hadent botherd to translate the last 2 points, again disapointing for SU of the uni of waleses capital city.. The whole thign was a bit of a joke to be honest.
18. Rickie
Tom, how can it be sneaky to openly call for support for a demo called by an organisation in a bill? It would be sneaky to call for support for a demo without mentioning who was organising it.
And Amy’s suggestion in the last paragraph that in future bills like this should be banned does have a whiff of McCarthyism. Ban left wing motions that big business might not like is supposed to be democratic?
As to whether the economy can afford an £8 an hour minimum wage – we just spent £170 billion bailing out the bankers who would not get out of bed for less than £800 an hour so why not use the wealth of the country to pay those who actually produce it rather than those who spend it?
£8 an hour is about £15,000 a year. Does Tom really hope to get a job paying less than that. And if not why should anyone else?
As to whether big business can afford
19. Jamie
Not wading into the socialism debate here, but on the £8 minimum wage – when the initial minimum wage was originally implemented (late ‘90s) businesses claimed it’d cripple them. It didn’t, mostly because it was around the ‘market wage’ for unskilled work. However, it did mean businesses offered fewer jobs to young, unskilled workers.
Anyway, I agree that Edmund wasn’t being sneaky – sneaky would’ve been if the motion had gone to AGM, rejected, then he’d tried to put it in through the back door of Student Council. It’s no secret that Edmund’s a member of Socialist Students, and if students at AGM want a great big THIS IS LEFT-WING stamped on a motion before they know which way to vote then I’m just worried…
20. Lianne Wilson
Jamie: I don’t think anyone really has an instant problem with left-wing, do they? Mind you, I wouldn’t be surprised if some people do vote based on silly things like that. Very few people want to come to the AGMs and so very few people are going to take the time to read the agenda thoroughly and vote conscientiously. The whole AGM system is rather flawed in that regard. Forced voting doesn’t really work.
Incidentally, Edmund had already tried to go through Student Council, had it rejected and tried at the AGM. The Union was not best pleased.
21. Tom
No whats sneaky is claiming something isn’t there when its in print for all to see thats my point, maybe sneaky is the wrong choice of word in which case thats my fault but it shouldn’t detract too much from the argument. A similar motion went before student council regarding financing youth fight for jobs and was rejected, surely its no less objectionable doing it the other way round.
To be honest with a politics/history degree my hope of getting any kind of job is slim so yes I may genuinely end up in a job which pays less than £15000, one of my current post uni options would pay a hell of a lot less than that.
Also what about all the small businesses and individuals who’s loans would have been called in by administrators to pay off banks debts if we did let them go bankrupt, its not purely the bankers who would have been harmed by letting the banks go under and to argue that it is is to completely dismiss the bigger picture.
22. Chris
For some reason the article was tagged under Amy’s name, but it was me that wrote it. Firstly ‘Edmund’s integrity based purely on his political affiliations which he has always been honest about’ is an untrue statement, at what point did he mention those affiliations at the AGM? This is not a personal attack and I personally think socialism is a very important political position that drives change and reform but if we adopted it in its entirety it would damage the economy. The important question is whether we propose motions that don’t expressly state what they are (when did anyone mention that YF4J was organised by the socialists?) Just be honest, say who you are and who organises the event and then say what you believe in. it was not the aim of the motion, more the way it was presented. If people want to go on the YF4J march good for them, however some of you seem to have suggested I hadn’t done my research. Believe me I had, probably more than a lot of the ideologues criticising the article. Far from the laughable comparisons to McCarthy that have been mentioned above I found YF4J to be a decent, but politically motivated organisation with a few ‘bad apples’ towards the top of the organisation. Those of you who are part of the organisation, who are the ‘scabs’ one of your leaders was referring to? Don’t dodge the question I think everyone deserves to know?
23. Chris
Also…. Ok Josh I’ll bite ‘Maybe you should write an article espousing the benefits of this great system rather than claiming that a fairer minimum wage would ‘cripple the economy’…. I have an idea- why don’t you? Anyone can write for Gair Rhydd so rather than complaining from behind your computer maybe write one? also I am writing an article on the parliamentary peace campaign this week, quite a positive one actually, people who believe in generally ‘left-wing’ ideas, I noticed you haven’t written on them and their struggle? Challenge the article, but don’t challenge my integrity
24. Rickie
“a lot of our country’s wealth pre-credit crunch was produced by the banks” ... but it all turned out to be fictitious capital it did not really exist and consisted of derivatives that evaporated when the crunch hit.
“its not purely the bankers who would have been harmed by letting the banks go under” I never said we should let them go under. Instead of bailing them out we could have nationalised them properly for nothing and used the £170 billion to protect people’s jobs (and allow them a livable wage).
“Just be honest, say who you are” This from someone who had an article published in the name of Amy!
At no time has Edmund pretended to be anyone except a socialist so he has not hidden his views. The implied accusation of dishonesty does not work.
And why was Edmund wrong to raise it at the AGM after it was rejected by the Student Council? Surely the AGM is the leading body of the union and if he was not allowed to then the SC would have a veto over what the AGM discussed.
“should we let motions onto the floor ” means banning them from discussion, a tactic used by Mcarthy amongst others (Stalin, Saddam, Milosovic etc. etc.)
25. Chris
Woh I wasn’t expecting such name calling, even from crazies like the guy above. I don’t like bankers either! tax their bonuses if they must have them why are you having a go at me about something we agree on?
Yer the editor accidentally put the wrong name in, i’m not the editor i don’t choose the tags, plus I came on and told you I wrote it, so hardly hiding am I? Edmund didn’t say he was anything else, but at no point did he state he was a leading member of the socialist students. I didn’t say ban the motion I said motions should be honest ‘they should state their true intentions’. It’s no surprise the council voted it down.
So we agree bankers are bad, clearly i’m not being dishonest because I came on and defended myself against your slander, and i don’t think honest motions should be banned. The fact the socialist students attack machine has come on and compared me to dictators that killed millions is a disgrace. Disagreement is fine but the personal vitroil spew shows why so many people are turned off by radicals on both the left and the right. Your comparisons demean the deaths of millions, feel free to challenge the article but name calling merely offends and doesn’t convince anyone.
so when will you answer the question, who are the ‘scabs’ your dear leaders were referring to?
26. Lianne Wilson
“a tactic used by Mcarthy amongst others (Stalin, Saddam, Milosovic etc. etc.)”
Oh, for Pete’s sake….
27. Rickie
No Chris. Clearly you are not Stalin etc nor even McCarthy.
But you are trying to limit democratic debate by preventing certain motions from even being discussed. And its fair to point out, so did they.
And the “attack” came from you originally didn’t it?
Oh, and did the opponents of the motion explain their political affiliations when opposing it? And have you?
28. Chris
Clearly? Well stop implying, lets be honest you are clearly a very angry person?
No the attack was stating the facts in an article. Me I’m not affiliated with anyone nor do i have particularly strong ideological positions, I’m a ‘swing-voter’, but because I’m not a socialist im evil yer?
So once again why won’t you explain who one of your leaders was referring to when he spoke of ‘scabs’? for someone who wants open debate you sure dodge questions
29. Josh Beattie
You heard it here first Ladies and Gentlemen, Chris is a swinger.
30. Chris
Man that is the funniest thing I’ve seen since the socialists last petition.
So once again why won’t you explain who one of your leaders was referring to when he spoke of ‘scabs’?
31. Edmund Schluessel
I am preparing a full reply on this subject, but briefly:
It is a fortunate sign of maturity that “Chris” is willing to admit his ignorance of the basics of the left & the trade union movement that, mere days before, he felt competent topontificate on.
In the situation of the employees in a workplace going on strike, a “scab” is a temporary worker brought in by the management to perform the work of one of the strikers; over time the term has broadened to include employees who continue working even after the union representing them has started a strike.
In context, here’s a verse from the Florence Reese song “>Which Side Are You On>
Oh workers can you stand it? Oh tell me how you can. Will you be a lousy scab Or will you be a man?
Don’t scab for the bosses, Don’t listen to their lies. Us poor folks haven’t got a chance Unless we organize.
32. Rickie
Sigh. Its not important Chris. A scab is someone who deliberately comes in and takes someone else’s job when they are on strike.
You’re not evil Chris. But clearly very anti-socialist and you have allowed your prejudices to cloud your judgement in demanding that certain motions should not be discussed.
33. Chris
Woh its the big dawg….welcome! Are you guys taking shifts on this? Which one of you is currently going out to buy some self-righteousness burgers?
Unions are great! Standing up for workers/students is great! The fact you are so radical that you are even attacking people who generally agree with you means I’ve gone from disagreeing with the motion to actually questioning socialism as a valid cause, because none of you will actually maturely discuss the topic.
Credit to Edmund all he did was call me ignorant, but like I said since I don’t share your world view I am clearly somehow a bad person!
A swinger, implying comparisons to murderous dictators, suggesting I love bankers bonuses, a telegraph reader (for the record I read the times, guardian, independent, DailyKos, foxnation, Huffingtonpost, not just ‘the socialist worker’, perhaps it gives me a better world view?) so all your accusations are complete lies.
So will you now apologise for your lies or will you throw more insults and humiliate yourselves further?
I think it might be Rickie’s go again, I think he’s in the corner drooling over Mao’s Little Red Book
Why don’t one of you write an article this week talking about socialism? explain your point of view, or you could just spew more hate on here (yawn)
34. Jamie
Lianne – It’s more that anyone who’d read the motion and maybe done their research on YFFJ (was the motion published prior to AGM?) would have known that it was a lefty one, so to claim Edmund was sneakily hiding his politics shows them up a bit. But you’re right that there’s a problem with forced voting…
If something’s rejected by Student Council, I don’t see a problem with then taking it to AGM; AGM is, after all, the highest body in the Union. But once a motion’s been rejected by AGM then that should be it for that academic year at least.
If someone took a motion to AGM, had it rejected, then tried to get it through Student Council that to me would be sneaky because AGM should be the final word.
35. Katie
Chris you are assuming people are saying things they are not at seem to be getting worked up about it. Nobodies calling you bad or evil, but if you don’t want to receive personal attacks the key is not to make them. You complain about your tactics being linked to McCarthy and then make comments like “I think it might be Rickie’s go again, I think he’s in the corner drooling over Mao’s Little Red Book”
You’re giving as good as your getting.
Also, I don’t see why the party organising a campaign should matter. Surely if the campaign is a good one then back it? If you think Socialism is unrealistic fine, but that doesn’t mean fighting for our future is unrealistic. You ask people not to attack your integrity yet you’re still assuming Edmund’s aims were to promote the Socialist Party and seem unwilling to accept that he had student’s best interests at heart. Not to mention describing Ben Robinson as “an unsavoury character” and yet not knowing was a ‘scab’ was. Also you describe Ben as “one of our leaders” it doesn’t quite work like that in the SP, we’re all leaders! ;)
Seeing as Socialism is about putting people before profit, even if Edmund was just trying to push Socialism it’s still hardly a dastardly deed and still with good intentions.
36. Chris
Haha I love that, I was respectful for as long as possible despite all the insults and when I eventually react with a joke that’s nowhere near as bad as crazy McCarthy/Stalin stuff it’s the whole ‘we’ve all said some things’. Very immature.
I never attacked socialism read the article, I attacked the way in which it was sneaked in and yes it was sneaked in. Sure for anyone who did their research they would know what the motion was about and who was proposing it, but how many people at the AGM do research before? virtually none. If it’s so bad why did people stand up to oppose it? Ben described himself as one of the leaders, (his words) so even if you are all leaders then he is still one of them. You just made that point for me.
Dastardly deed? When did I say that, It’s interesting how you are all trying to make this a referendum on socialism, which it is not. Ignoring the failed attempts at more radical socialism in the past the socialism you guys talk about on your website seems good, positive and in people’s best interests. So why weren’t the affiliations explained at the AGM? That’s the key. The only real negative I can make here is this constant attack from all of you on my free speech whilst misrepresenting my article as trying to stop your free speech seems awfully hypocritical!
I’m fully expecting a personal attack with lots of words like ‘ignorant’ etc in edmunds article. Hey I can take it, and packing the Gair Rhydd comments board isn’t going to stop people pointing out things they believe it. So just as I welcome your free speech, I expect you to welcome mine.
37. Katie
It was advice if anything Chris, but never mind. And again, nobody called you McCarthy/Stalin. Just your methods. Socialism wasn’t sneaked in, is there some kind of rule that any campaigns related to a political affiliation must have the political affiliation announced? If you don’t have a problem with the party and the campaign why was it so important that the connection be explicitly stated? If people don’t agree with socialism then they would be voting against the motions put forward because they were socialist in their nature.
Ben Robinson has probably stated that he plays a leading role in the campaign.
Nobody’s attacking your freedom of speech, don’t be daft. We are criticising your article and thus exercising our own freedom of speech.
38. Chris
They said I was acting like McCarthy, like I said laughable. They were not socialist in nature they were progressive in nature, very different. No Ben Robinson called himself a leader, a direct quote, take a look.
Cool well we’re all agreed, glad to see the Socialist Students have had a productive day! I’m not going to post anymore because I’m bored of all this and I’ve made my point. Adios
39. Jonathan Bird
I believe Edmund is stuffering because of the activities of other left-wing partys. I have seen nothing deceptive in the way he has campaigned here in Cardiff. I’m a Liberal Democrat and I talked to Ed Carey Also a Lib Dem. at the Welsh Liberal Democrat conference. When James Wood and Andy Buttons descussed tutuion fees with conference. Political partys make decisions that affect students’ lives and students are supporters of Polictical Partys.
40. Kath
“They said I was acting like McCarthy”
Isn’t it called a metaphore…?
41. Jamie
“but how many people at the AGM do research before? virtually none.”
Perhaps, but that certainly isn’t Edmund’s (or anyone in the socialist party’s) fault…
Kath – Nope =P
42. Jack Price
Chris. Don’t take this as a personal attack because it’s not intended as one but there’s really no other way to say it – you seem to be overreacting a lot to some of the comments here. I’m bemused at the way you seem to be implying that there’s some kind of massive attack on you because people disagree with your article. Although there have been some instances where you have been personally insulted (a bad thing, I agree) this is by no means equivalent to the number of times you claim to have been – eg Edmund did not call you ‘ignorant’, he merely stated that you were ignorant of some aspects of the Trade Union movement – a quite different thing, and, as you did not know what a ‘scab’ was until informed (despite having used it as one of the main points in your ad hom argument against that Socialist chappie), also apparently with some truth behind it.
From what I have read no-one is calling you a bad person or whatever, and if they have then I will happily agree that they are wrong. Emotive comparisons to dictators or other assorted ‘baddies’ are also doing nothing to advance the argument, yes. But perhaps being a little less defensive and more open to legitimate criticism, of which there is some in the comments, would help to stop the people who are determined to sling mud. I would write a response, incidentally, but I cannot possibly speak for the Socialist Students so instead I am posting on this forum. I was under the impression that responding to articles was what this comment facility is intended for.
43. Lianne Wilson
Jamie: The thing is, AGM is hardly all that well-thought out as a political body. I’m not sure a body which has forced voting, regularly has quoracy issues and has to bully people into turning up is all that democratic. The AGM’s problem is that things like the YFFJ motion and the Kit Kat ban and the Coca Cola ban and god knows what else usually get passed (I’m aware YFFJ didn’t, which is why I’m saying usually) because of the way AGM works. Societies are forced to bring four or five members but will only bring that number, however, extremely politicised societies with certain agendas will usually bring more members than the required minimum. This leads AGM to be skewed in favour of more wildly politicised views and this can sometimes drown out the voice of the ‘normal’ student. I don’t really know what can be done about it, but I do think it’s an issue. AGM does not accurately represent the student body.
Katie: I think this newspaper has already seen that a lot of people do think that Edmund’s heart lies with Socialism over students. It’s all here in black and white. Also, the “we’re all leaders!” thing is quite cute. Have you seen the way a socialist state is actually run? I suppose I don’t need to tell you myself, it’s easy enough to look up as, would you believe, they get quite notorious.
“And again, nobody called you McCarthy/Stalin. Just your methods. “ – I’m aware I’m courting Godwin’s Law here, but that’s like saying “nobody called you Hitler, we just said you had Nazi methods”.
Kath: No, love, it’s called a simile.
44. Glyn
This article is one of the most disingenuous I have read in recent times. It argues that Edmund is underhand and politically motivated and it is quite clear that this article is politcally motive,but it clearly has not been open and honest about that.
Has Edmund been underhand? I can not see how anyone could argue as such. He may not have annouced whilst speaking his political affiliation but neither is it a secret, especially as he can be seen reguarly outside the SU running Socialist Student campaign stalls, and many other activities inside and outside the university which make is political affiliation blatantly obvious.
Is it neccessary for every speaker at the AGM to outline their political opinions on a range of topics before they propose, second or oppose any motion? Of course not they should outline why it is they think what they think in the context. Clearly no one can say that Edmund did not do that.
It is also that it was obvious to anyone who even wanted to look into Youth Fight for Jobs in passing which organisations are supporters, all you have to do is google Youth Fight for Jobs and within 2 clicks on the mouse you are on the list of sponsors!
In reality I have no idea what relevance it holds that both Socialist Students and the Socialist Party are sponsors of Youth Fight for Jobs. Edmund talked about the SU supporting Youth Fight for Jobs rather than requesting that the SU support Youth Fight for Jobs and any organisation which supports Youth Fight for Jobs.
It is quite obvious from every angle that Edmund has been open and honest all the way through this, Neither Youth Fight for Jobs nor any of the Socialist Organisations who support it have in anyway tried to hide that connection in fact quite the opposite.
I could challenge anyone to actually be able to argue honestly absolutely anything different to that.
45. Kath
“With that in mind, it’s a shame that the opponents of Edmund’s motion elected to undermine support for a united staff-student campaign against education cutbacks by starting a whispering campaign that has a whiff of the McCarthy era about it.”
Looks like a witty metaphorical comparison to me… but maybe that’s just me.
46. Kieran Harwood
“all you have to do is google Youth Fight for Jobs and within 2 clicks on the mouse you are on the list of sponsors!”
Oh, yes, I remember how there were lots of computers lying around the great hall that people could use to do that. That was quite fortunate, as otherwise what you are saying would be utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand (whether or not it’s secretive to say, as one of about FIFTEEN points that you have on your proposal, that we should join an organisation with a somewhat misleading name that people who have just shown up know nothing about).
Here socialists (as you seem to present yourself as one collective group), I’ll sum the problem up really simply:
The AGM comes around and you put forward a proposal, you put lots of nice things people will like in it (we should cap tuition fees, woooo, yey) and some other things that are generally going to be reasonable (let’s ask people on campus what they think about fees, they’re too high, booooo) and THEN you put a couple of other things in which, if people understood the full ramifications of, they’d not agree to, you then wrap all this up in your one proposal, emphasise the good bits a bit more and then ask everyone for a single yes/no to the whole thing
Lianne already said this back in comment 10, but no-one seems to have noticed, nice selective blindness there.
Do you understand the problem now? Why have all of them in one thing, instead of, say: a nice one everyone can agree to, a moderate one that may get through, and an extreme one that has no chance? It’s ALMOST like you want to get your extreme plans through without anyone noticing…
Also, “should we let motions onto the floor unless they clearly state their true intentions?”
How is that anti-left wing? Does the left wing support not explaining what they’re doing? That’s the only way I can see that this is inhibiting you specifically…
At no point does the article say “we should stop left wing people from talking”. Stop whining about McCarthyism, there’s no comparison, what is being asked is that the proposal is made clear and we don’t have this stealth tactic that is used. You aren’t being stopped from having your say, you’re being stopped from being dishonest in the way you say it.
47. Edmund Schluessel
People were offering leaflets about Youth Fight For Jobs to everyone going into AGM. Hell, I was wearing a Karl Marx badge when I gave the opening speech. We’d have to have tried pretty hard to be less stealthy.
One final thing I want to clarify, which is fairly dull but which needs to be said: our AGM motion was not a call for affiliation to Youth Fight For Jobs, just a call to support the demonstration (as Sarah Ingram correctly noted in her speech against). The motion I submitted to Student Council in November was a call for affiliation, so the AGM motion was in fact scaled back and not identical to what I’d put forward before.
The full text of the November motion is in the minutes of the 10 November Student Council, and Jemma Mallorie will have that somewhere. The November motion included the following resolves:
“To support the Youth Fight for Jobs campaign and add CUSU [Cardiff University Students’ Union] to the list of sponsors.”
Meanwhile the corresponding language in the AGM motion reads:
“To coordinate with these unions to build a united campaign for the highest-quality education & conditions at the best price at Cardiff University. “To offer our solidarity to the other students’ unions within Wales and UK-wide where cuts & fee rises diminish quality of education & quality of life for students. “To support Youth Fight For Jobs’ demonstration on 17 February at 2pm at the Senedd against education cuts.”
There was no call for affiliation to anything, apart from a general mood of solidarity, in what we put forward at AGM. The notion that we were trying to affiliate Cardiff Uni to Youth Fight For Jobs in our AGM motion is a myth.
48. Chris
So if you cover someone striking to put food on the table you’re therefore a ‘scab’ so you’re not invited to push for better rights for workers? Sounds inclusive! It isn’t ‘slander’ or ‘irresponsible journalism’ its the truth, thats the point of journalism, to question stuff that looks dodgy.
Don’t pretend for a second you weren’t using your position to push a socialist agenda. 99% of the motion was solid good and would have passed, I believe the students of cardiff are cleverer than you accuse them of being and the AGM was a good sign of informed debate and democracy in action. The people voted, get over it and quit name calling.
Ignoring the divisive topic of politics, very well done on the ale festival Edmund it was brilliant, now there is something we can agree on!
49. Glyn
“Ignoring the divisive topic of politics, very well done on the ale festival Edmund it was brilliant, now there is something we can agree on!”
Would now be a good point to point out that CAMRA was set up by a Socialist Party member?]
50. Glyn
to be accurate, a member of the predecesor of the Socialist Party
51. Edmund Schluessel
Funny thing is, the last three bar managers of the uni beer festival have been leftists of some flavor or another—two socialists and a green.
Unfortunately, the whole time I was running things I never managed to get this on the bar.
52. Professor Longhair
Perhaps a more pertinent question might be why the Student Union Executive (most of whom are hush-hush members of political parties such as LibDem and New Labour) is not showing a lead in this area, showing solidarity with lecturers and organising a campaign against the impending cuts that may be the biggest cuts in university education in a generation?
We saw last year when the un-elected, self-appointed University management axed most of the humanities courses in Lifelong Learning that the Student Union Executive failed to meaningfully show any support or solidarity for students in Lifelong Learning and the large number of staff who lost their jobs.
Incidentally, bizarrely the fat-cat Vice-Chancellor of Cardiff University (a rich bastard who ‘earns’ more than the Prime Minister & has no background in education ) claimed there was a shortage of cash, but there appeared to be no shortage of cash when he awarded himself another 12% whopping pay rise . . .
53. Lianne Wilson
Edmund: “Hell, I was wearing a Karl Marx badge when I gave the opening speech.” Yeah, I’m sure you could definitely see that from the back.
Glyn: “Would now be a good point to point out that CAMRA was set up by a Socialist Party member?” Really? Oh wow! Now that I know that I’m going to sell all my possessions and join the cause! You’ve totally changed my mind by telling me that something I like was made by something I don’t like! It’s a good job the Nazis didn’t really invent Fanta or you’d be peeling the swastikas off me right now. I don’t think students are really going to start thumbing through Das Kapital just because you guys brought us some beer…
54. Glyn
thats my point exactly! Something you seem to fail to understand obviously
55. Edmund Schluessel
This was on at the Ernest Willows when I swung by for lunch today though.