Gair Rhydd

1. Edward Mason

As good as gair rhydd usually is, and as good as the rest of the article was, I was disappointed to see that the reporter has so badly misrepresented the views of the Atheist and Agnostic Society in this article.

The society most definitely is not against Quiet Rooms. What we are against is the prospect of Muslim-only or Muslim-preference prayer rooms. This is what would “disrupt the secular ideal” of the university, as quoted in the article – not Quiet Rooms as a whole.

This position was communicated effectively both during the forum and afterwards, in talking with the gair rhydd reporter. I’m therefore at a loss as to where this distortion of views came from, and I expect some form of retraction or apology from whoever is reponsible.

Edward Mason
Exec Member of the Atheist and Agnostic Society

2. Abdul-Azim

In response to Ed Mason’s comments; at the forum it was repeatedly and clearly stated – by all in the room – that the Quiet Room’s would be open to everyone and not just Muslims. Further to that, no Muslim who attended the forum had any objection to the Quiet Room being shared whatsoever.
It is unfortunate that you feel your views were misrepresented, but it did seem that at the forum at least, the stance of the Atheist and Agnostic society was that any Quiet Room’s would be a waste of funds, space and against secular ideals – regardless of how they were used.

3. Mark

I’m an atheist and I’ve got no problem with the idea of faith rooms, if the University has got money to waste of pointless projects then that’s up to them.

4. Edward Mason

I thank Abdul-Azim for his reply.

And I thank him for repeating that prayer/quiet rooms would not discriminate against non-Muslims, though I don’t understand exactly why he thought it necessary to make such a repetition. There was concern over potential issues of discrimination. That concern was proven unfounded. So long as it remains unfounded, there is no problem.

And I am still utterly mystified as to how anyone could possibly believe us to be against quiet rooms. Perhaps Abdul-Azim can explain exactly what opposition he imagines secularists to have against a secular quiet room (provided, which should be no problem at all, that there is sufficient space in the first place)? How he imagines that anyone could think that secular quiet rooms could possibly be “against secular ideals”? (A quote, by the way, which originated from discussion over a policy on faith and was not mentioned in any discussion over prayer rooms.)

If he cannot conceive of such an opposition, I have to ask precisely why he ascribes such an impossible opposition to the Atheist and Agnostic Society.

And besides – even if there was room for misinterpretation during the forum, there surely was none afterwards in our conversation with the gair rhydd reporter. The very first question asked was the society’s position; the very first answer given was that prayer/quiet rooms were fine so long as they remained open to all people at all times (and that, as there was no reason to think they wouldn’t be, we therefore had no problem).

That, despite all of this, the article completely contorts the society’s viewpoint beyond all recognition, is completely unacceptable.

5. Chris, Cymry Rydd

What about pagans? kaballah etc? animal spirituality (inc bovines?)

6. Edward Mason

I can understand that, during the forum itself, it was easy to get confused between the questions of policy and of provision – and indeed at times it was almost impossible to separate the two. Hopefully now any such confusion has been dissipated.

But gair rhydd had the benefit of a news reporter asking for short statements and clarifications afterwards. Clarifications which were given. And yet still the distortion of views made it to print. Why?

7. Abdul-Azim

Thanks for your reply Ed.

I can’t (and didn’t) speak for your personal interview with Gair Rhydd.

But, during the forum, the following points were made in opposition to the Quiet Rooms: –

1) Funding should be spent on other more needed facilities (such as support for students with mental health difficulties).
2) Universities are a place of education, and so the university should not be expected to provide faith-services (the definition of which the Quiet Room would fall under).
3) Shortage of space within the university makes it impracticle to set up a Quiet Room (an argument you’ve just hinted to once again).

In light of these arguments, I think it’s quite clear that even if the A&A Society did not intend to portray the opinion that they were against Quiet Rooms, by forwarding such arguments, they did indeed convey such an impression.

However, since you claim these were clarified to the GairRhydd reporters afterwards, I wish you all the best in getting your retraction and apology.

8. Edward Mason

Thanks for detailing those ‘points of opposition’, Abdul. Allow me to clarify for anyone still confused, exactly how those opposing points were not made against the provision of Quiet Rooms.

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, no-one actually argued number 3) during the forum. I believe someone said that there was a shortage of space in the Students’ Union, arguing against a centralised Union prayer room – but clearly there’s a very big difference between ‘space in the Union’ and ‘space in the university’.

And those other two points – regarding funding and the role of the University – were, unless I’m very much mistaken, made purely in the discussion on whether the University should adopt some sort of policy on faith. That was a very different discussion from the one on the provision of Quiet Rooms. When it came to discussing provision, even the most controversial members of the A&A society only had questions regarding potential issues of discrimination.

Perhaps it was the inclusion of two related, and yet very distinctive, discussions in one forum that led to the ensuing confusion as to who believed what.

9. Liam Lord

Adbul,

I should point out that A&A soc met to officially decide a position, and our concern was specifically raised at at least 2 points by myself alone.
This was “Our chief concern is that, at any time, would a student be barred from the room based on religion?”. I am pleased that this will apparently not be the case.

The provision of Mental health facilities is a serious issue which some people didn’t grasp. It is overloaded precisely because students are seeking help from it. No-one contests the value of such a service. However, i note that there are 3 Mosques within ten minutes of the union, one a mere 2 minutes from where we held the meeting. I didn’t get to ask, but are these 3 really so inadequate? This would be useful to know, as the existing facilities in Cardiff weren’t mentioned.

10. Mohsin Malik

In response to the comment by Liam Lord regarding the fact that there are 3 nearby mosques, yes there are 3 nearby mosques.

But as explained in the forum by myself, during winter periods of the year the day is shorter and we (muslims) have a late afternoon prayer that occurs between 2.15pm and 4pm. This usually occurs during afternoon lecture times.

I myself, on several days of the week, have a full afternoon of lectures from 2pm to 5pm, with only 10 minute breaks between each lecture. Now I am quite lucky to have my lectures in BioSci where I can reach the quiet room and pray and return in time for the beginning of the next lecture.

However, I personally know many people from Redwood building who have to travel from there to the BioSci building. Now it may not like a great distance between the two buildings, but if you think about it, getting out from the lecture theatre, walking towards the BioSci building, getting to the basement, and then praying and finally returning, it takes a lot more than 10 minutes, probably closer to 20 minutes

Now if there were no quiet rooms at all, it would mean we would have to walk 10 minutes or so to the nearest mosque, pray, and then come back, this would take around 25 minutes.

I hope this establishes the need for having quiet rooms in most buildings, rather than just having one or two in central locations

Regards,
Mohsin Malik
Cardiff University Islamic Society President

11. Jon

This may sound heartless, but religious people know what university will entail before they apply and that it is quite probable that the lecture schedules will disrupt their religious practices. Whilst I may sympathise with not being able to follow these practice to strict adherance, it isn’t the job or place of the university to work its schedule or funding around, or to meet, the religious needs of its students.
If the university has funding available and space in its buildings then its priority should always be that of improving the educational standards and educational facilities of the university. The only other thing that it should use its money for would be that of ensuring there are appropriate medical facilities in the case of an emergency.
If you want somewhere to practice your religion you go to a church, mosque etc when you can fit it in. I would say the same for if you wanted a good drink or night out, go to an established pub or night club. The university, especially one placed virtually in the middle of the city, shouldn’t waste its money on social and religious facilities when there are plenty already scattered around and easily accessible within minutes of the university.

12. Sam Stone

As another member of the Atheist and Agnostic Society I too was disappointed to see the views of my fellow members misrepresented. I was unable to make the meeting in the Students’ Union, but from what’s been written here I gather that the idea of a secular quiet room inside the Union was generally well received.

However, I feel that Mohsin Malik’s comments above suggesting that the university should provide prayer facilities in every departmental building are unrealistic. I appreciate his concern about the distances between locations, but I don’t think it’s the university’s responsibility to address these issues. In fact, I’d say that, as the president of the Islamic Society, it’s upon his shoulders. Now surely, in every building, there are rooms that sit empty for some portion of the day. If Muslims choose to pray several times a day, it is up to THEM to meet with each department to try to arrange the usage of a room at the appropriate times. I’m sure the university departments would be accommodating and helpful in providing timetabling information so that Muslims can arrange and publish prayer location timetables for each building.

Ok, there may not be rooms available nearby every single time Muslims choose to pray, but surely this would be a reasonable compromise? I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect any more of the university. While I support the introduction of a quiet room in the Students’ Union, which has a broader role in student life, please don’t forget that the purpose of the university’s academic departments is solely to educate. It is not their job to pander to religious requests.

13. Sally

To the members of the Athiest and Agnostic Society:

I am sorry if you feel your views have been misrepresented by the gair rhydd. I just want to make clear that I have detailed minutes of the Forum and will be using these to write up a report. I will then email out the report to everyone who attended the Forum (and signed in) to check over before I take it to the University. This will prevent anyone feeling disatisfied.
I’d suggest that you write a letter of rebuttle to be published in the first gair rhydd of next term if you feel strongly enough about this (and I can see that you do).
Thank you again for your presence at the forum and your contributions. And this of course extends to everyone who attended. It was a positive step forward and I will push forward plans to have more regular meetings for anyone interested in these kind of discussions in future.

14. Bill Hodge

No offence intended to anyone but surely this has gone a bit too far, university is about academic studies and as such religion should be left at the door. Religion is a view and the minority should not affect the majority.

15. Jon

“Religion is a view and the minority should not affect the majority.”

Just wanted to put a correction on this. A 2005 study suggested that approximately 84% of the world’s population are religious in one way or another, so I would guess that the majority of university students are also religious in some way. Non-religious people are therefore in the minority, and according to your statement you are contradicting your original point. But even if the majority wanted it at university I don’t think it should be given and I refer to my previous post for my reasons behind this.

To clarify though, I completely agree with you Bill. Just wanted to point it out and correct it before anyone used it as an argument for the religious rooms.

16. Liam Lord

To Mohsin,
Thanks for the response, it’s useful to know. I concur with Sam however, that surely speaking with the individual building administrator would be more effective (and quicker) than pressuring the union. Also, though you will most likely (and understandably) disagree, if students find their religious practices inconvenient in Uni, it is because universities are not designed or run in order to accommodate these beliefs. They are outside the remit of the university. Any barriers are due to Students’ own chosen faith.

—-
A note to the last comment- those figures have no indication of the intensity of religiosity- most british christians have never read their bible. The forum in question wasn’t even full, as only a minority of religious students cared enough to attend. I suspect that the majority opinion of Cardiff uni students to this issue is actually one of apathy.

17. Jon

“A note to the last comment- those figures have no indication of the intensity of religiosity- most british christians have never read their bible. The forum in question wasn’t even full, as only a minority of religious students cared enough to attend. I suspect that the majority opinion of Cardiff uni students to this issue is actually one of apathy.”

Yeah, that’s a fair comment. But even apathy doesn’t mean non-religious. Somehow, I doubt that even most church-goers, depending on their denomination, actually read their bible, particularly those whose whole service is taken by a vicar or priest. But then again, do you need to read your bible to be a christian? Probably not. So I guess there is no real true indication either way from either of our comments.

18. Omid

Bill Hodge, how are quiet rooms going to affect people who aren’t going to use them?

19. Mark

Just as a side note in the last census around 70% of British people were identified as Christian, yet of this 70% only around 5% went to Church more than once a year, excluding weddings, funerals and so on. So we can assume only around 3-4% of the UK population is a practising Christian. I take my parents as an example of this, both are pretty decent people who were brought up as Christians but now, in middle age, they only go to Church for family events and perhaps once over the Christmas period. I suspect they are very typical of British Christians. They don’t go to Church, they don’t red the Bible, they have no interest in theological matters, they don’t pray and they’d might only admit to believing in god of some kind if pushed. Does this make these people Christian? In the loosest sense maybe, but only in the most meaningless way. Not only has this secularisation of Christianity been confined to the flock, I recall reading that almost a third of Anglican Bishops don’t believe in the resurrection of Christ and a similar number consider God more of a concept than a reality.

So is Britain a Christian nation? No, it’s not. We’re a post-Christian society. I don’t think we should kid ourselves about this, any idea for a ‘multifaith quite room’ won’t be multifaith. There’s no call for Christians to use such a facility because there are no Christians, and judging from comments on here it seems the only other group who wants such a facility are the Islamic students which, given the nature of how and when they are dictated to pray that seems understandable.

But if this facility, if it should come to pass, is going to be a multifaith one then if one was a evangelical Christian one could walk in whenever one wanted eating a tasty pork sarnie before praying to the ‘Christian’ God and how he should get about smiting all these heathens. Or would that be unacceptable?

20. chris white

“Bill Hodge, how are quiet rooms going to affect people who aren’t going to use them?”

Because their money will pay for it. Or if it’s a conversion of an existing facility, deprive everyone else use of the room. (Much as taxpayers’ money is used to fund that utterly ludicrous city academy in Gateshead whose “science” lessons consist of young-Earth creationism and flood geology.)

Rightly or wrongly, it patently does affect those not planning to use it.

21. Omid

There are over 3000 international students here in Cardiff Uni though. I’m interested to know how many of them are Muslim (if someone knows the approximate amount that would be useful). When you consider how much these students pay compared to the amount we pay to study here (I think it’s three times what we pay), surely they should have some say in this matter; and if there is a general consensus among the international students (as well as many of the British Muslim students, and a significant number of Christian students too which was evident in the forum) that they’d like a quiet room then I really don’t see how that affects the rest of us.

22. Charles Solti

Sally- congrats, thought the forum was really good

23. Caleb Woodbridge

I’ve got no problem with the idea of a prayer or quiet room, but speaking as a Christian, I don’t think that I or other Christians would see it as a necessity. For Christians, prayer doesn’t need any special location. I often attend Christian Union prayer meetings, which take place twice a week on campus in rooms booked through the normal room-booking system.

If people of other faiths do require a dedicated room, then I don’t have a problem with that. There are plenty of university services that I don’t use; there’s no need for prayer/quiet rooms to be something that everyone would use as long as there’s enough demand for them.

That said, I wonder whether just sorting out the room-booking system to make it straightforward to ensure that available rooms have timetabled prayer slots are booked for Muslim students (or whoever else) would be a simpler solution. The room-booking system is over-complicated and over-bureaucratic though, so making it simpler and easier might make this way of doing things more practical.

I’d agree that Britain is largely a post-Christian society now. But I don’t think you can judge the level of people’s religious commitment or activity by the number of people attending this event. For one thing, people are often busy – I’d have liked to have attended, but had other commitments. For another, it would have attracted that perhaps narrow subset of people who not only have an interest in religion, but also in Student Union and university politics.

I’d like to pick up on Bill Hodge’s comment: “No offence intended to anyone but surely this has gone a bit too far, university is about academic studies and as such religion should be left at the door” , and also what someone is quoted as saying in the news article, that “Faith is a preference and not a personal need”.

I don’t think you can compartmentalise religion so that people can just “leave it at the door”. Religion isn’t a hobby or leisure activity. Beliefs aren’t a consumer item that you possess; if anything, beliefs possess you. I’d hope that people by and large believe things not out of some consumeristic choice, but out of a sense of obligation to believe the truth as best they can understand it. What people perceive the truth to be is something that varies wildly, of course, which makes life very interesting, to say the least.

We all have convictions, beliefs, ideas about how the world works and so on. For some people, these include supernatural elements, such as a God of some description. But everyone holds to some kind of basic view of the world, and we can no more set aside our worldviews than a fish can decide to set aside water. And whether or not a worldview is “religious”, it operates in basically the same way in acting as a framework of understanding for our lives.

The university should be a place where there is freedom of belief, not freedom from belief. I agree that university should be secular in the sense that no religious viewpoint (or any viewpoint) is prescribed by the university. I disagree that it should be secular in the sense of not making reasonable accommodation for people to practice their beliefs.

24. Mubz

The university has managed to cater for non academic aspects, like providing entertainment facilities in some buildings, bars, etc. to cater for students who would use it. Just like those, this is a need for muslim students and if im not mistaken Cardiff university aims to cater for different needs so this is simply helping them achieve that.
The opportunity cost of giving up a couple of rooms really isnt that high for an institution as large as Cardiff uni.

25. i'd rather not be beheaded thanks

Religion is not a need, it is a choice, and quite frankly, a bad choice. It’s all very well saying “oh no this isn’t a prayer room for muslims only, it is a quiet room for all students” But realistically do we expect to see a diverse range of peoples in these rooms (at least in the long term, it could be predicted that people will enter purely to rile feathers). It is my opinion that we should not be encouraging faith in a secular institution of higher learning, leave that to the Religious officials, if they want a quiet place to talk to skydaddy, let their own institutions pay for it.

26. Rasputin

Fool…

Does it matter how diverse a range of people(s) there are in this quiet room? If mostly Muslim people attend it, does it become a Muslim prayer room? Does it bollocks. It becomes a quiet room attended mostly by Muslims.

As such, a quiet room could be perceived as anything from a Christian prayer room to a Buddhist prayer room to somewhere for agnostics and atheists to drink a cup of tea and talk about how silly it all is. I imagine the room will basically be a neutral, largely bare room with washing facilities for those who require them for their praying rituals. That’s not prejudice or positive discrimination; it’s accommodating.

I’m not especially pro- or anti-quiet room, by the way, and I’m not saying we should definitely have one in the Students’ Union; just pointing out that it can be open to all faiths and non-faiths (badly expressed – basically I mean atheists), and therefore remain secular but open to those of a religious persuasion.

27. Rod

I compare it to the TV licensing fee, I pay for it expecting a certain amount of quality programming but also accept there’s plenty of garbage I won’t watch. ( i.e.Songs of Praise ;) ), same with funds.

Money that accentuates the working environment of a sector of students seems fair enough even if it won’t ever be valid in my own personal way. It seems there are valid arguments for allocating the funds elsewhere ( mental facilities etc ), but also a lot of hot air by some who just want to open up into standard critiques of religion.

Apologies if the comparison seemed crass btw, just how I see it.

Also don’t see how quiet rooms are encouraging faith, I don’t for instance imagine a 10 foot neon sign outside the steps forcing everyone to discover the delights of prayer. The presence of a quiet room is hardly proselytising the students – most of whom will no doubt not even realise its there.

28. Adam Troth

I think a quiet room within the Student’s Union is perfectly reasonable, provided that there are certain ground rules for its usage. For instance, there should be no religious symbology on the walls (this has been a point of conflict in prayer rooms in hospitals for example). The room should also be a quiet environment where people can relax, reflect or generally be alone with others who wish to do the same.

Most critically, no one group would be given priority of use over another. If these criteria and others were met I think a quiet room within the hustle and bustle of the Student’s Union would be a good thing. However, I do fear that it may be a ground for conflict if it is not carefully considered.

29. Mark

I suppose we could arm all the different religious factions and see how it plays out. It could be a microcosm of religious conflicts across the world, undoubtedly an important sociological experiment.

30. Jon

Aren’t the prayer times of Muslims, or those who practice Islam, quite vocal? I may be wrong, but that is always what I see when they are shown on TV etc. If this is the case, the “Quiet Room” wouldn’t be very quiet. If it is meant as a general quiet room for all, then people might feel uncomfortable sitting in there listening to people pray. And for other religious people whose prayers are not necessarily vocal, they would undoubtedbly be disturbed by those who are vocal. Also from what I have seen again, Muslims use mats and kneel on the floor, so unless a large room is given over, there will not be enough space to accomodate much furniture and the room will be decidedly cramped when in use.

The logistics of a general quiet room are just unfeasible. As the general call for such a room seems to be mostly coming from Muslims, there is no difference from having to run from your lecture hall to the student union and back, than there is from the lecture hall to a mosque. So unless the plan is to put what is essentially a prayer room in every university building, then the idea just doesn’t work. If that is the plan, then it shouldn’t go ahead because it would be wasting valuable resources of the university. The simplest solution is for anyone wishing/needing to pray to find an empty room in their building (and there are plenty of empty rooms during the day) and using that. This would remove any possible controversy, it wouldn’t require the spending of resources and it would mean religious students wouldn’t be so rushed running to a designated prayer room between lectures.

I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again: religious students know the deal before they come to university and it is likely they will have to miss prayers or work their religion around university timetabling. It isn’t the place of the university to accomodate this, that is not its function. Also, and this might sound crass, but if God/Allah/Yahweh/etc is all loving as made out then I am sure he is reasonable enough to understand and accomodate the difficulties a religious student might face with fulfilling certain aspects of their faith. I seriously doubt he would smite you down for missing 4 or 5 of your 35 weekly prayers for example, and if he did then if it were me, I wouldn’t want to worship that God.

I apologise if any of this comes across as offensive, that is not my intention.

31. Rasputin

I don’t suppose there will be any religious symbols in the room, for obvious reasons. I think it should also operate as a quiet room, but if so, it would have to remain quiet to give peace to those who are praying. Much like a library, really.

32. Rasputin

It depends what God you worship, and that can even be read in a purely Christian sense: do you believe in a forgiving God or a vengeful God? But point taken.

Praying in any religion can be quite vocal. I think separations in this room might be necessary – booths, whatever – not for segregation but comfort and convenience. Some people may feel self-conscious praying (especially if it is quite vocal) in front of people of a different faith or non-faith anyway.

33. i's rather not be beheaded, thanks

I am trying to get my head around why you are calling me a fool, Rasputin. The fact is atheists don’t need an extra room in which to drink tea and talk about how silly it all is, we go to the pub or make do with what we have. I didn’t make this point hit hard enough in my previous message, but the fact is secular organisations should not have to accomodate religion because they have their own institutions to waste money on credulity and solipsism, let the mosques pay for a quiet room. Just because something is popular doesn’t make it true or even beneficial, and Islam is probably the most cogent example of this. While we may have to tolerate their incessant hatred of democracy and freedom, we do not have to kowtow to their demands.

34. Abdul-Azim

Just in response to a few points made: –

Regarding ‘vocal’ prayers: – Some Muslim prayers are vocal, but this vocal can be in the form of an audible whisper, so if there are other faiths using the room at the time, I don’t think there will be much conflict. Also, the vocal prayers are in the early morning and evening, so less likely to happen in Uni.

Regarding the comment that this call is coming from Muslim students predominantly: – As seen in the My Faith forum, many different groups (not just Muslims) were in support of the Quiet rooms, and had every intention of using them.

Regarding the argument that this is a secular Uni and so shouldn’t accomodate for any faith: – The call for a revision of faith policy in Cardiff Uni is very much coming from the ‘top brass’. The decision was based on the fact that most students do ascribe to some religious faith and would like these faiths to be catered for. If someone disagrees with the new direction Cardiff University is taking, then perhaps they should reconsider the University in which they’re studying – not the other way around.

Regarding the comment that Muslim’s hate ‘democracy and freedom’: – Yes, and we’re also out to claim your first born children and your soul while we’re at it – that is if we’re not too busy claiming income support and taking all the jobs.

Seriously, I would have expected someone in University to have a more intelligent outlook on the world then simply boiling an issue down to ‘they hate freedom and democracy’.

35. Adam Troth

I would very much doubt that most students at Cardiff ascribe to a particular faith in a meaningful way. They may describe themselves as Christians or Muslims or Jedis, but they do not actively follow that religion. For example, of the many Muslims who attended the recent forum (which for some bizarre reason the Union believes to be representative of the campus as a whole) I bet you very few of them pray 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for life.

While we cannot boil down this complex issue to single soundbites, it is very clearly the case that Islam as a religion (in particular in its Islamist political form) is bitterly opposed to the ideas of democracy and freedom of speech. In fact, I would go as far to say that Islam and democracy are fundamentally irreconciliable.

In Western democracies, there is near universal enfranchisement with very few exceptions (and what exceptions do exist are generally sound). Sharia Law (which according to surveys nearly half of Muslims in Britain want) would mean that women would be treated as second class citizens. All it would take to defeat fundamentalist Islam is an uprising by Muslim women.

As for freedom of speech, the recent farcical episodes with the Danish cartoons, Salman Rushdie’s knighthood and the Sudanese teddy fiasco have shown that Islam is fundamentally intolerant of free speech. Simultaneously, we regularly hear Islamic clerics condeming Westerners, infidels and other such unfortunate folk, yet as soon as anyone dares to criticise Islam, they are branded racist or intolerant. You can’t have your cake and eat it! People in glass houses…

I am aware that Islamic culture is significantly less evolved than the Christian/post Christian culture of the West (and I’m not one of those idiots who think that democracy is a Christian invention!) largely due to it being 600 years younger. 600 years ago, the Christians of Western Europe were behaving absolutely abhorrently. However, in the 21st Century with the weaponry and technology that we have, the stakes are so much higher.

36. Liam Lord

Further to the previous comments, from my viewpoint at the faith forum, attendees were around 75% muslim- this is not representative of the university.
That being said, muslims are the only students whose religious choices include regulated prayer- christians had no business being there and one was openly proseleytizing.

Whatever the numerous problems of Islam as a political theocratic force, this forum is about students at Cardiff who are muslim. They have so far been nothing but courteous, let’s not forget that.

1 point Abdul: This policy change is a recent idea, and wasn’t in play when most of us signed, so this is a case of the deal being changed after we signed, hence us being right to protest.

37. Adam Troth

I don’t doubt that Liam, I have numerous friends who consider themselves to be Muslim and they’re a great bunch. I’ve had some very stimulating discussions with the Islamic Society. The subjects of democracy and freedom of speech within Islam were raised, and I simply offered my opinion.

38. Edwin Webb

Let’s be honest: there are many muslims in the UK, especially from Pakistani backgrounds, whose stated – or unstated aim – is to conquer Europe and turn the infidel westerners into muslims. These people will not integrate and expect British society to change for them. The British education system has a long history of cowardice and misplaced multiculturalism – encouraging people NOT to integrate and be separate. This attitude spawned the 7/7 bombers and has meant that there are muslim ghettos in the UK where 15% of British muslims think the 7/7 bombers did a good thing! How many British muslims would be loyal to Britain if we had a war with Pakistan, for example. What we need is LESS religiosity, not more, especially the literalist backwards version of Islam (compare the Pakistani literalist conservative Islam to more enlightened Islam in Turkey and Malaysia) – and any spare money should be spent on facilities for ALL students not just moaning muslims. So, quiet room for all, mental health services for all, sports/health facilities for all – and also, a close watch kept on muslims (remember, most of the 7/7 bombers were connected with UK universities and schools). No special treatment for anyone who worships an imaginary friend – not matter how much they scream and shout and flap.

39. Rasputin

“Let’s be honest: there are many muslims in the UK, especially from Pakistani backgrounds, whose stated – or unstated aim – is to conquer Europe and turn the infidel westerners into muslims.”

That’s being honest, is it? You’re insane. For a start, Islam isn’t a converting religion, and secondly…no, I don’t see the need to argue. I think your argument that Muslims are aiming to “conquer Europe” says enough.

40. Edwin Webb

Rasputin – I think your insulting and slandering anyone who disagrees with you says enough about your rudeness, lack of charm, absence of tolerance, bigotry and instinct to attack those different from you. Are you muslim by any chance?

As for your assertion that ‘islam is not a converting religion’ – I think you may be getting your muslims and jews mixed up here – it’s the jooz what don’t let non-jews join innit Mr Fagin and no mistake! Not the muzzies – remember Mohummed, the 7th century warlord, thief, polygamist and paedophile (with 14 wives, one was 9 years old) who started all this trouble by inventing a religion in the dustbowl of the arabian desert – based on the moon cult that existed in Mecca whose god was called Allah. He did it for political reasons and FORCED others to convert at the point of a sword – this is why north Africa and other areas outside Arabia are muslim – no-one chose to be so, they were forced – and if they refused they found out at close quarters that Islam was and is not a religion of peace but rather a religion of pieces: the chopped off head, the chopped off hands, the chopped off cojones if you is a slave from Africa (read the koran on slavery).

I say again – many muslims in europe have an agenda to turn europe muslim – and some will try and achieve this through violence – and some of this terrorism will no doubt be planned by British university students.

Let’s not allow misplaced multiculturalism cause us to sleepwalk into disaster or betray our values pandering to intolerant and bigoted religion-obsessed peasants who base their culture on the literal reading of an ancient text.

And insinuating anyone who disagrees with you is a racist just shows how trite, weak, inaccurate and ineffective your arguments are.

Oh yeah – and as an Atheist I am considered worse than a dog by many British muslims – and as a gay man many mullahs would like to behead me – and deny me the freedom to criticise their invented religion (read your koran mate and wipe those scales from your young and innocent eyes).

41. Jon

“I think your insulting and slandering anyone who disagrees with you says enough about your rudeness, lack of charm, absence of tolerance, bigotry and instinct to attack those different from you”

From your last 2 posts Edwin, I think you are clearly talking about yourself here. Your sweeping generalisations about Muslims are quite frankly, disgusting.

42. Edwin Webb

No, Jon, my views are not disgusting – they are a lucid appreciation of the difficulties we all face in Europe – including those muslims who are not conservative bigots – the bigots who believe in imposing a literalist interpretation of an ancient text on the whole world via the ‘ummah’. And please note – I emphasised some muslims, not all, and praised the tolerant non-literalist islam of muslims in Turkey and Malaysia to contrast it with the backwards peasant Saudi-funded Islam preached by ill-educated ‘scholars’ from Pakistan in British mosques. We should not be tolerant of interpretations of religion that go against British (ie modern) values – that misplaced multiculturalism and twisted thinking created the 7/7 bombers and will create more too. There WILL be more attacks in the UK by home-grwon islamists. I am only attacking political bigoted intolerant islam – if any wants to believe in some fake religion – or have any other belief, however wacky – I don’t really give a flying fig AS LONG AS THEY KEEP IT TO THEMSELVES AND DON’T ASSUME THEY CAN IMPOSE THEIR DISGUSTING WAYS ON OTHERS. If they were white and non-religious the PC establishment would be against them – because they are brown and religious we must ‘respect their culture’. Now that’s first class hypocrisy. One law for all – one set of rules for all – one quiet room for all and no special treatment for muslims. Agree?

43. Mark

I was under the impression that the quite room for meant for use by anyone who wanted to use it for quite reflection.

I don’t think it’s fair to condemn all British Muslims for the actions of a handful, in fact it is down to the assistance of the British Muslim community that so many attacks have been foiled. Furthering perhaps you should remember that not so long ago the terror threat facing Britain came from white, Anglo-Saxon Christians.

Finally I would ask just what more you would do to address the specific threat coming for the Muslim population of this nation that isn’t already being done? Before you answer though consider that you have gone to pains to argue that you want to protect modern British laws such as the rule of law and democracy, so don’t suggest anything that would be anathema to these views or something that a Court of Law would find against, because that would just be blatant hypocrisy, wouldn’t it?

44. Jon

You say you emphasise “some”, but you keep on saying “many Muslims from X and many Muslims from Y”. This is not “some”. Your anger is against fundamentalists and extremists, who make up the minority. The majority of Muslims who practice Islam are peaceful and law abiding citizens. The fact that you highlight “political bigoted intolerant Islam” shows that it is not real Islam and that it has been corrupted by politics. You also call for a “close watch on Muslims”. This view IS disgusting and a sweeping generalisation.
I agree with you that there should be no special treatment for Muslims, but I certainly think you need to show some tolerance and not be so disrespectful.

And well said, Mark.

45. Edwin Webb

Jon – you seem very naive and are parroting the standard PC line. Unfortunately, there is a large minority of muslims in the UK – mostly lower class, badly educated and of Pakistani origin – who directly and/or indirectly support islamism and terrorism. (15% think the 7/7 bombers did a good thing; 44% refuse to condemn the 7/7 bombers; most blame everything oin the West and foreign policy, despite the fact that islamic terrorism was underway decades before Britain liberated Iraq and Afghanistan). It is not just one or two – there are apparently 15000 muslims in the UK who are potential terrorists – and many muslims who, through their silence and failure to condemn their ‘brothers’, let their silence speak volumes. Yes they can all march along waving placards saying ‘we’re all hammas now’ when this country wants to overthrow a muslim dictator called Saddam who killed one and a half million people (muslims, actually) – Hammas wants to destroy all jews and israel and aims to emulate hitler!!!!! Do you support hammas then?

The Muslim Council of Britain’s former leader sacranie believes all who leave Islam should be killed!!! And what happens? He gets a knighthood from Blair coz everyone wants the muslim vote!!! And Mad red Ken of Londonistan invites muslim clerics to tea – people who believe all gay people should be hanged, women should dress up like ninjas and one-woman tents, anyone who leaves islam should be beheaded and…you get the idea now????

And don’t peddle the lie that Islam is a peaceful religion that has been ‘corrupted by politics’ – read the koran and see how peaceful islam actually is. According to Islamism, Islam is everything: law, politics, life – everything. THAT is why it is SO dangerous – it does not accept that law should be man-made. I think you need an education in Islam actually (read ‘While Europe Slept’).

A close watch should be kept on muslims for reasons of national security – to keep a close watch on 80 year old white grannies would be a waste of resources.

And by the way, I’ll be as disrespectful as I like to anyone’s religion or opinion or belief: this is a cornerstone of British democracy actually, in case you didn’t know.

I would advise you to get educated, to become aware of what’s going on and I hope you or people you care for are not the next victime of our complacency and ‘tolerance’ of th 21st century nazis called islamists.

46. Jon

If you think I am naive then you are just wrong. It does seem quite clear though that you are a racist. You also make absolutely no sense. “There is a large minority”? You can’t have a large minority. 15% is a minority when there is 85% on the other side of the scale. Also, silence does not mean agreement. THAT is a naive view. You say there are apparently 15000 Muslims in the UK who are potential terrorists. You seem to forget the millions of non-Muslims in the UK who are also potential terrorists. Anybody could potentially kill themselves and others, not just Muslims. You don’t need to be religious or Muslim to be a terrorist you know. All you need is to feel like you have a grievance and be a bit insane.

I didn’t say Islam had been corrupted by politics. I said the views of the people you highlighted had been corrupted by politics. You actually made that point by saying they were political.

I also didn’t say you couldn’t be disrespectful, I said you shouldn’t be so disrespectful. Not because it isn’t your right, but because if you continue the way that you are everyone will just think you are a tw*t.

And as a gay man who seemingly longs for tolerance towards his sexuality, you show no tolerance towards the majority of Muslims who wish you no harm. People are a bit more enlightened than you give them credit for. Just because it says in a book that gay people are an abomination and should be killed, doesn’t mean that people are actually going to follow it. They may disagree with your lifestyle, but 90+% will realise that they can’t kill you just because it says so in the book. Christians also disagree with the gay lifestyle, but they are educated and enlightened enough in the Uk to know that killing you would be wrong. Give Muslims a bit of credit too.

You are actually more like a Nazi than any Muslim I have ever met or spoken to. You seem to want to control all Muslims “because they are all dangerous”. How would you feel if someone said today that we should keep a close eye on all gay men because they could potentially give us AIDS? I imagine you would be quite upset and feel it was a naive and uneducated view. It is much like your view that every Muslim in Britain deserves to be watched and wants to kill you.

You only need to read or watch the news to see that the majority of killing that takes place in the UK has nothing to do with Muslims or religion. I think you should worry more about the drunken White louts on the streets who will randomly decide to beat you up or stab you just because they think it is fun.

I pity you and your cynical view on life. And I hope your racist and fascist tendencies don’t get you into any trouble.

47. Edwin Webb

Blimey! I advocate equality for everyone and you call me a racist and a fascist! Errr…it ain’t me who hates the Jooooz… or wants to destroy Israel…or spreading anti-semitic lies in mosques and islamic ‘schools’ all over the world…or makes up lies about a jewish conspiracy or jews working in the twin towers having forewarning of 9/11 (a lie made up by islamofascists).

People always fling accusations of racism about when they’re lost the argument, I’ve found. A very cheap shot -just like the accusations made by muslims of ‘islamophobia’ (a word invented in 1998 by the race relations industry to claim special treatment for muslims and link religion and race) to anyone who ever criticises them.

There is such a thing as a large minority my friend – get a dictionary eh? Or ask your teacher.

Silence can and does mean tacit support: it did in nazi germany and it does in 21st century Britain. Where are the marches by muslims to protest against the teeny weeny minority who are extremist? Where? They all love to march against british foreign policy or cartoons or call for the death of salman rushdie (who you should read actually for an intelligent view on how the west shoul react to muslim demands – ie ignore them).

Yes, there are extremist christians – but Islam has never had an enlightenment and believes the koran is the exact word of god. There has been no enlightenment in islam – it is intrinsically backwards as a religion. If you cannot grasp that, you won’t understand why Islamic terrorism exists at all.

Oh Goody – 90% of muslims don’t want to kill me it’s only 10%. Hoorah! I’ll send Osama a box of chocolates forthwith to say thank you for being so tolerant!

I say again: islamism is the fascism of our age.

And yes, AIDS education should be targeted. So should surveillance – and we should target muslims as they are the ones who have a tendency to bl;ow their arses about half a mile from their tits taking many innocent british people with them (and it only takes one).

Wake up and smell the semtex baby.

48. Jon

Equality for everyone? Yet you call for Muslims to be watched and essentially controlled. That isn’t equality for all. If you truly were you would give equal tolerance to all aspects of Islam as you give to your cynical and atheistic views. Full of contradictions.

I also call you a racist because of your sweeping views on Muslims, not because you think you have won, as you certainly haven’t. I agree with you on extremists, but your opinion that all Muslims from the ‘backwards’ places are evil terrorists is just wrong.

Large and minority are two contradictory words. It is stupid to put them together.

Silence can mean support, yes. But to generalise that it always does is just naive. Just because you don’t speak out against something doesn’t mean you support it. It is just apathy.

Should we also keep all Irish people under surveillance because they are IRA? What about Americans because they are trigger happy and massacre school children? And Britons for their historic tendencies for rape and pillaging? And Germans because they are all Nazis? The list could go on and on. Yes, there are supporters of Islam who are extremists, but your views of watching people because of their colour or race are just reminiscent of the days when Black people were viewed with such disdain. Your views are no better than the ones you seemingly abhor from Islam.

Anyway, it seems painfully apparent that we won’t agree on this, so let’s just agree to disagree.

49. Edwin Webb

You called me racist because you want to claim the moral high ground, you have run out of arguments and you think that by flinging around accusations of this spurious kind you will appeal to the masses (been watching too much Jeremy Kyle or Trisha probably). It’s a very common technique – and a trite one too, much used by noisy, poorly educated types. Of course, you will also prove how non-racist you are by accusing others of racism (just like in nazi germany or communist russia or islamic states – call someone an infidel to show what a good liitle mullah one is…)

You may not realise this – you seem unable to comprehend the concept of a ‘large minority’ (as I said – ask your teacher) – but ISLAM IS NOT A RACE, IT IS A RELIGION. So, my criticising muslims leading to your accusing me of racism shows starkly the muddled limits of your thinking.

Yes, it was right to keep Irish people under surveillance in the 70s and 80s – the blowing up of several London bridges was prevented by this. If most terrorists were little old ladies from Norway – then the focus and resources should be aimed at putting them under surveillance. There is nothing wrong with targeting. And preventing terrorism comes before upsetting a few muslims. That Brazilian guy would still be alive were it not for muslim tube bombers, don;t forget.

The British have historic tendencies for rape and pillaging do they? I think you may be thinking of the Vikings there – unless you were brainwashed by anti-British PC teachers at school (many are). ALL people have raped and pillaged: it’s called empire building, and the history of humanity is the history of empires. (Mohummed, the 7th century warlord who concocted islam, had 14 wives including a 9 year old – rape AND paedophilia!!!)Of course, if the British want to rape then they should head for Pakistan – as a woman need 4 witnesses there to prove a rape – and if there aren’t 4 she will be publically stoned for adultery!!!

I suggest you reaearch what many muslims in the UK REALLY think before accusing anyone who points out that islamism is fascism of being a fascist themselves.

50. Mark

Well since you failed to respond the first time I shall ask again, just what do you think should be done that isn’t being done now?

51. Jon

Your arrogance knows no bounds.

I am not going to be goaded into a drawn out and infantile “I’m right. No you’re not. Yes I am” argument with you.

I see no reason to further this when you have continually missed the main point I have been making and the clear fact that we will never agree.

My opinion of your views remains. And trust that my accusations were not because I have no more to say, as I could spend the rest of my university life going back and forth with you. Thankfully though, I have better things to do with my time.

Anyway, that is the last I will say on this to your views. I hope you will have the dignity not to have another cheap shot at me after this and just end it now with this.

52. Rasputin

“Rasputin – I think your insulting and slandering anyone who disagrees with you says enough about your rudeness, lack of charm, absence of tolerance, bigotry and instinct to attack those different from you. Are you muslim by any chance?”

No. Why?

Jon’s doing the job of pointing out the abhorrent nature of your views quite well, so I’ll just repeat what hasn’t been addressed: Islam is not a converting religion. Muslims are not invading Europe, trying to make other people Muslim. That your evidence they are is thousands of years old shows the weakness of your ‘argument’. Just because that’s how the religion may or may not have come about doesn’t mean it’s happening now.

Islam is not racist. You are.

Admirable use of the word “peasant” in this day and age though, that’s brilliant.

53. Edwin Webb

Rasputin –

Most immigrants to this country from Pakistan lived a village peasant lifestyle with attitudes that come from that background. If you cannot differientiate between a descriptive use of a word and an insulting one, that that is because of the limits your linguistic abilities, not mine. This fact is why so many muslims in the UK are a problem whereas Hindus from a Indian background – or muslims in the USA – who were from a middle-class, educated, professional backgrounds are not.

Flinging accusations of racism around like confetti is typical of PC muppets of limited intellect – and is the reason why there is no calm, rational debate about race, immigration or islam in this country. People like you lot prevent it. Shame.

If you think Islam is not a ‘converting religion’ then you are even more ignorant than you sound. My evidence is not ‘thousands’ of years old – it is based on the stated views of muslims (read the BBC muslim message board and get real, sonny). While you’re at it, grow up.

Jon.

The one central difference between your arguments and mine is that mine are backed up by real evidence – people murdered by homegrown british muslims, loads of evidence of speeches and writings od UK muslims, and fully checkable research on the views of british muslims. I have no idea what point you are trying to make in your little rant – which probably says an waful lot about your intellectual level and lack of linguistic clarity (if you are special needs you should have said so). Your views are based on your prejudice against anyone who questions your PC view. Do some research matey. Read some books (you know, those oblong fings made of paper – you’ll find em in a library) – it’s not my job to educate you. But sadly, people like you are preventing the authorities from doing their job, which will lead to british people being killed, which brings me to:

Mark.

Unfortunately, the misplaced multiculturalism, mass immigration and total complacency of all british governments for the past 4 decades has led to a dreadful situation which will take 4 decades or more to put right – if that’s possible at all. This is why so many british people are emigrating actually – to get away from the multicultural utopia you think this country is. Muslims were for years encouraged to be separate, terrorist groups were allowed to operate – even at universities until 2001 – and we even trained iranians, pakistanis and syrians at UK universities in how to make chemical weapons!!! Unbelievable! Teachers turned a blind eye to forced marriage, honour killing, bigotry and racism from ethnic minorities – and still do. If you’re a muslim and brown you can be a nazi – and instaed of being condemned, you’ll get council funding and a lottery grant and an MBE too. Hoorah! Allah u akbar!!!!

What to do? 1) stop all immigration from muslim countries; 2) keep all mosques under surveillance and allow the authorities to stop and search and target muslims without children like you screaming ‘racism’; 3) expel all illegal immigrants, and all pakistani mullahs in mosques; 4) stop promoting multiculturalism – instead promote integrationism – and insist teachers keep an eye on all students; 5)Work with the USA to destroy islamism in pakistan and elsewhere; 6) increase funding to MI5/MI6 so they can infiltrate mosques and islamist organisations – again, without people like you stopping them doing their job; 7)tell all muslims that if they won’t abide by our values they should get out of our country – for example, i am allowed to draw a cartoon of mohummed, including an obscene one, and i am allowed to hate islam and express my views, i am allowed to campaign against the islamists and censors and PC idiots who want to bring backwards pakistani peasant religious ways to my country. You have to remember, we are effectively at war with islamists, and so have to behave accordingly. Unfortunately, no governemnet has the guts to do what is needed – as they always have their nose up the muslim electorate’s **.

And what would you do to make the 15 000 muslims in the UK who are potential terrorists become peaceful little bunnies? Any ideas?

54. Jon

So I’m special needs now?! How very mature of you. I told you that you can’t goad me, but your need to insult me when I tried to bring a diplomatic end to our ‘discussion’ speaks volumes of you. Thank you for confirming everything that I accused you of.

55. Mark

1. That would be incompatible with European Human Rights Law, so it’s not going to happen.
2. We don’t have the resources to keep all Mosques under surveillance all of the time, besides it would be unnecessary because the overwhelming majority of Mosques are not a problem are the ones identified as problems are targeted by the Police and Security Services. Secondly the Police have the power to stop and search anyone and this power was widened under the Anti-Terrorism Act to give the Police far ranging powers and before you accuse me of being ‘a child who cries racism’ at these measures I suggested you go and read my letter ‘opinionated’ on the letters page.
3. Illegal immigrants are expelled, they just have to be found first. Secondly you cant just expel Pakistanis because you don’t like them, most of them with be British and/or European citizens and to deport them for no clear reason would go against British and European law, so its not going to happen.
4. Teachers do keep an eye on students and have been encouraged to report anything suspicious to the Police, especially at higher education. You can’t force an integrationist approach, most happily integrate and the rest want to keep their own cultural identity and, as long as they’re law abiding, we have a legal and moral responsibility to respect that. Besides racists like you should be the last people giving advice on racial integration.
5. Have you been living under a rock for the past 7 years? You do realise that Anglo-American forces have invaded and occupied two Islamic nation for precisely this reason (ignoring the fact we’ve completely ballsed at least one of them up)? Are you suggesting we start invading and occupying every Islamic nation? We simply don’t have the manpower, and neither does the US, frankly we’d have trouble dealing with Iran right now.
6. The Secret Intelligence Service and the Security Service were essentially given blank cheques after 9/11 but the man problem is manpower, in order to infiltrate Mosques we need Muslims working for us as agents and officers. Despite a vast increase in people working for the Security Service we’re still understaffed and it takes time to train officers and recruit agents.
7. You can’t forcibly remove people without reason, that’s a crime against humanity bordering on genocide. Secondly, as long as you are not inciting religious or racial violence, you have a legal right to free speech, however abhorrent your views. I suggests you go and read some British law and the facts of the situation before you come back and then we’ll continue this discussion, rehashing what you’ve read in the Daily Mail and the BNP website does not constitute informed opinion.

56. Edwin Webb

Yet again you accuse me of being racist and being a BNP supporter – typical of PC muppets who want to shut down all debate and ‘prove’ how right-on they are: this is why this country let multiculturalism go mad for decades, with the british tax-payer subsidising islamic terrorists!!! This is why the French refer to Londonistan – we have been SO lax in this country re islamic terrorism.

Unfortunately, it will take more atrocities to wake people like you up to the reality of the situation – every city in western europe has islamist cells in it – operated by mad muslims who, through reasons of insecurity really (they know that islam has been stuck since the 11th century and that the ‘West’ has won) want to destroy the West (ie White people from countries with a christian heritage) and all it stands for. Islamism is the nazi-ism of now – oh and they hate dem jooz too innit! You are all SO NAIVE it would be hilarious if it weren’t so tragic.

Yes, I know, some of the things I suggest are at present illegal – but as we are in an emergency situation at war with islamism, it is, I feel, appropriate to suspend normal legal processes – as happened during world war II. It will happen sometime – perhaps after a chemical or dirty bomb attack in the UK.

I suggest you read Salman Rushdie has written on this – or a very lucid book called ‘while europe slept’.

I assure you that I shall be proved right in the end – when islamists kill hundreds, maybe thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people in the UK and europe. I assure you that these islamic nutters will be british muslims from a pakistani background and that they will have gone through the british education system where, no doubt, they got tremendous moral support from your ‘tolerant’ attitudes.

Remember: If you’re too open minded your brain falls out – which seems to be your affliction.

And remember too: those who are right usually are condemned by the tyranny of received opinion before they are proved right. Unfortunately, it will take a massive islamic attack before you’ll be forced to admit that I’m right and you are naive beyond belief.

Shame the powers that be didn’t think of the consequences of their misplaced multiculturalism and immigration policies decades ago – they have created one hell of a legacy for the children of this country. Perhaps those politicians should be prosecuted for their idiocy – or perhaps they should be forced to live in inner city muslim areas where they can celebrate diversity to their heart’s content… while being hated by the local mullahs and mugged every fortnight…

57. Mark

I’m sorry but the idea that we should destroy freedom in order to preserve it doesn’t sit right with me. Everything that can be done is being done and being done well. Thankfully the British people are reactionary, racist morons like you. There is no more to say.

58. Jon

Might be wrong mate, but did you make a typo and actually mean ‘thankfully the british people AREN’T reactionary, racist morons like you’?

Sometimes I wonder if this is just CTD pretending to be far-Right just for a laugh. If not, we’ve definitely been introduced to his mirror image.

59. Mark

Do’h. Yes, that was a typo. Was trying to do a few things at once. Yes, that had crossed by mind, but I don’t thiink this person(S) is CTD, further I doubt they’re in uni either.You’d have thought BNP members would have better things to do, wouldn’t you?

60. Rasputin

“If you think Islam is not a ‘converting religion’ then you are even more ignorant than you sound. My evidence is not ‘thousands’ of years old”

Uh-huh, just to recap the exchange between you and I, quoted verbatim and repeated without any changes to the words:

You: “Let’s be honest: there are many muslims in the UK, especially from Pakistani backgrounds, whose stated – or unstated aim – is to conquer Europe and turn the infidel westerners into muslims”

Me: “Islam isn’t a converting religion”

You: “As for your assertion that ‘islam is not a converting religion’ – I think you may be getting your muslims and jews mixed up here – it’s the jooz what don’t let non-jews join innit Mr Fagin and no mistake! Not the muzzies – remember Mohummed, the 7th century warlord, thief, polygamist and paedophile (with 14 wives, one was 9 years old) who started all this trouble by inventing a religion in the dustbowl of the arabian desert – based on the moon cult that existed in Mecca whose god was called Allah. He did it for political reasons and FORCED others to convert at the point of a sword – this is why north Africa and other areas outside Arabia are muslim – no-one chose to be so, they were forced – and if they refused they found out at close quarters that Islam was and is not a religion of peace but rather a religion of pieces: the chopped off head, the chopped off hands, the chopped off cojones if you is a slave from Africa (read the koran on slavery). I say again – many muslims in europe have an agenda to turn europe muslim”

Re-read that and tell me of this evidence not based on the formation of Islam. I certainly can’t find any. You now reference Muslims on BBC forums, which you didn’t before, so I’m intrigued – please post a link for me to look at. Thank you.

It’s a great irony that a right-winger’s claim that accusations of racism are the last resort of a left-winger is, in fact, his own last resort. Or at least his antepenultimate resort – he then moves onto claiming we’re “SO NAIVE” and that we’re preventing a rational debate on tolerance and immigration. I think you’ll find we’re not preventing a rational debate at all – and also that you’re not being rational.

I’m well aware that Islam is a religion and not a race; I call you a racist not because I’m scared you’re right, but because you denounce all working-class Muslims (sorry, “peasants”) as potential terrorists – who require a “close watch” “for reasons of national security” – or if not, then at least thugs:

“perhaps [politicians] should be forced to live in inner city muslim areas where they can celebrate diversity to their heart’s content…while being hated by the local mullahs and mugged every fortnight…”

It’s lovely that you want freedom of speech, and were you to ever read what I write you’d find that it’s something we agree on. Call it a “cornerstone of British democracy” if you will, but so is the right not to be forcibly deported – as Mark pointed out, quite possibly a form of genocide – for the colour of your skin or the religion you follow. The idea of preventing migration for Muslims and even destroying Islam worldwide by invading various countries is basically religious genocide.

[And by the way, I’m not left-wing.]

61. Adam Troth

I find it amusing how Mark, Jon et al have all done a pretty good job of rebuking Edwin’s arguments, yet he is the one accusing them of being petty and childish. Whilst I’m quite happy to disagree with people, the least we expect is a bit of respect and courtesy. By resorting to such needlessly pejorative words such as “PC lefties” and so forth, not to mention some drippingly inappropriate sarcasm, I think Edwin is beginning to realise how ridiculous he looks.

62. Rasputin

You speak the troth, my friend.

(Sorry.)

63. Abdul-Azim

Darn, it looks like I’ve missed all the debate.

Edwin Webb – your posts were definately fun to read. You throw endless ridiculous claims at Islam, followed by worryingly totalitarian ideas on how to deal with the perceived problem, with a very good amount of xenophobia and bigotry.

You talk of Islam as if it is a violent religion by default, when the overwhelming majority of Muslims have been positive, peaceful and productive members of whatever society they have been part of.

You claim Islam has failed to undergo an ‘Englightenment’, something which reveals your lack of solid education. While Europe was in the ‘dark ages’ – Muslims were leading the way all forms of science, art and philosophy.

You repeat the claim of Islam being spread at the sword – a claim that no historian takes seriously.

Your views are a product of orientalist thought and tabloid journalism.

And the most embaressing thing about all of this – is that while everyone else on this message board has conducted themselves politely and with dignity – you have failed to show any of those characteristics. Instead, you’ve quite clearly shown the hatred, anger and bigotry which is no doubt embedded in your personality.

It’s a sad truth that I’ve met many people like you before – and the one thing that is a common thread is the lack of engagement. Individuals like yourself, with such polarised and misinformed views, rarely engage in any meaningful with the subjects of their heated polemics.

I applaud everyone who attempted to debate with you – but sadly, you seem to be an individual intent and fixed on his own views – something proven by the fact you rarely addressed or responded to the refutations and questions put to you throughout the discussion.

Happy New Semester btw everyone.

64. Joel

Abdul-Azim wrote:
“You repeat the claim of Islam being spread at the sword – a claim that no historian takes seriously.”

.
.
You’re so blinded by your allegiance to your religion. An all-too-common occurance.

Even the anemic and deferential-to-faith BBC agree that Islam was spread by conquest.

So, yes, Islam was forged of violence, and ever-carries said proclivity in its very marrow.

65. Mark

Which means it’s got much in common with Christianity, I suppose.

66. Joel

Maybe so. But jumping to employ the ‘equivalence with christianity’ slant is incredibly prosaic and hidebound. Tu quoque is no argument.

67. Mark

You admit that the history of Christianity is every bit as bloody as the history of Islam yet you just right such a point off as prosaic? Personally I don’t give a shit which religion has the bloodier history, as I’m atheist, but as a historian I will point out that while it may be reasonable to argue that Islam has a bloody history it would be intellectually dishonest not to remind oneself that Christianity, and indeed Britain in particular, has a very bloody past. But that’s just me.

68. Joel

Don’t put words into my mouth Mark. I admitted no such thing. (Speaking as a non-christian, by the way) I said “maybe so”.

Bringing the plusses and minuses of Christianity or some other world faith to bear on this topic is trite obfuscation when the discussion at hand is Islam. Are you so craven that you never directly and candidly excoriate the failings of the tenets of Islam, without pusillanimously resorting to excusive religious homologies? Such pigeon-hearted hogwash.

The intellectual dishonesty is all yours. But that’s just you.

69. Jon

This sudden use of more complex words amuses me somewhat.

Anyway…

Taking something in isolation, like Islam, only intensifies opinions and feelings on that topic. Therefore, to have a more rounded and religiously contextualised debate, it is important to offer comparisons so that parallels can be seen. By only talking about one, in this case Islam, you risk concluding that it deserves such single attention and that the issues you raise are inherently magnified. This is especially the case for this topic, particularly with some of the views that have been expressed. It is important to realise that Islam is not alone in having been “spread by the sword” or that aspects of other religions also have violent tendencies. It is therefore not trite obfuscation, but necessary if you want a better and more honest understanding of the issue.

70. Joel

I don’t necessarily agree that discussion in isolation only intensifies opinions and feelings on a topic, at least not as a uniform rule.

That said, as a crabbed (and most likely unrequited) sop to the side of ‘comparative religious discussion’, I do agree that Islam is not alone in being spread through force. No fan of religions am I.

There is certainly a time and place to discuss religions in a comparative fashion. I argue that there is certainly also a time and place to discuss them in isolation (this topic at hand being suitable ground), but that is something I never see blanched sophists accommodate.

71. Jon

I agree that there is a time and place to argue them in isolation, but I just think more care needs to be taken in these cases to ensure that they are completely objective and fair.

However, I tend to believe that any talk about religion requires comparison with other religions because you generally need alternatives to fully generate the pros and cons. Having said that, the parallels between religions modern and ancient are strong, e.g. Mithraism, Christianity, Judaism, and I imagine there are things that pre-date Islam which are similar to it, suggesting that perhaps we are just discussing different off-shoots of a single worldwide religion.

All religion should deservedly be criticised, individually or comparatively, as long as it isn’t done in a nonchalant and uneducated manner.

72. Abdul-Azim

I hate to get into this oft-repeated and tiring debate about Islam ‘being spread by the sword’.

The point is easy enough to refute.

First, take into account countries such as Indonesia and Malaysia – the countries have never been subject to an external Islamic rule and yet Indonesia is home to the largest Muslim population in the world. Add to that the large number of converts to Islam (in Cardiff University alone if you like) who, the last time I checked, are not being threatened at the end of a sword or a modern equivalent to be a Muslim.

Yes, its true, that Islam gave birth to an empire as well as a religion, but this is quite a seperate and distinct issue than a religion being spread by force.

Religious freedom was sanctioned in the very first state constitution within Islam (see the Madinan Constitution) and the fact that some of the oldest faith communities exist in lands that had once been part of the early Islamic Empire (the Coptic community in Egypt, the Jewish and Christian communities in Syria and the Zorastarian and Yazidi traditions within Iraq for example) is a living and attestable proof to the tolerance of this early empire to different faiths.

73. Edwin Webb

Abdul-Azim

The fact that you are a muslims makes you somewhat biased about any discussion on islamic history don’t you think?

People of all cultures and religions have been brutal in the past in spreading their religion WHICH IN INTRINSICALLY LINKED to politics, power, empire and money – they have very much NOT been separate in history. The ‘West’ has over the centuries grown out of such behaviour; Islam on the other hand, which never had an Enlightenment (the protestant reformation) is stuck in its Islamist attitudes and ways (circa 11th century).

As a muslim you’ll go all glazed-eyed when praising islam in the past – BUT in the ‘golden age of islamic slavery’, all muslims drank alcohol, kept slaves and had hareems where they could have sex with girls and boys. Is that islamic? The problem today is that Islam has not evolved and see islam as a complete way of life – according to a literal reading of some ancient fake text. That is backwards and perverse.

Oh, and by the way, the jews have been forced to leave their homelands by arabic muslims (there is only ONE JEW in Iraq now), anti-semitic cartoons appear every day in newspapers in the arab/muslim world, and the myth of tolerant islamic societies – eg the brutal ottaman empire – was actually invented by the british and the french to stop the russian empire expanding into europe. Oh, and as an atheist muslims consider me worse than a dog – and as a gay man muslims think they have the right to insult me, threaten my freedom and kill me (despite the secret gay muslims out there – muslim taxi drivers are famous for propositioning guys coming back from gay clubs!!!!)

The question is: what do you, as a muslim, think should be done about muslims in the uk who won’t integrate, obey british laws, abandon primitive traditions which are abusice racist sexist homophobic and violent, and who won’t fit in to british culture and just live peacefully with others? Any ideas? And wht are muslims doing to stop extremism? They seem to put a lot of effort into marching against british foreign policy and praying – how about a more proactive stance from you muslims – as the absence of one implies that many muslims actually support terrorists’ aims (40% according to polls). Ideas please.

74. Edwin Webb

By the way Abdul – I have nothing whatsoever against you in racial or religious terms – and i would also say that you assertion that I have been rude whe other posters haven’t is bizarre. Jon has said far ruder things about me than i have said about him – but i don’t mind – he’s young and immature.

We could argue for decades about islam in history (Mohummed himself murdered anyone who criticised him – and yet you worship the old man!!!!!!!)- the question is: what now? And, I feel, despite the bigotry of christians, sikhs, hindus etc (I was particularly disturbed about the sikhs bullying that poorr sikh woman for writing a play 2 years or so ago) – the question is: how can we cut religion from our public lives like the cancer it is – and leave it as a personal vice, like sodomy or incest? And how can you muslims start behaving like the civilised people you claim to be? (Here’s a clue: stop blaming the ‘west’ – who gave you muslims civilisation by the way, and technology – like cameras, the internet, guns, planes, skyscrapers, fridges to keep bodies in). I look forward to the march you will be organising in cardiff against the rape and murder of women and children – and will join it with you. As a gay atheist.

Peace baby.

75. Joel

I’m unsurprised as ever to find committed believers who are unreasonable, intransigent and irrational, under the wan cloak of civility, discernment and congruence. The sort of ‘ordinary decent pious’ people who claim a desire for ‘dialogue’, when their hearing is not real listening and compromise is just one way. And that way is only ever in favour of their particular flavour of nutty religious dogma, no matter what soft language dressing is put around it.

Anyone who cannot acknowledge that Islam has a history of expansion by force, or tries to disconnect the correlation between the spread of its empire and the ‘conversion’ of the conquered lacks lucid perception. Blinded by faith.

76. Joel

Edwin Webb,

Muslims say that they don’t worship Mohammad. Only god is worshipped.

(Of course, my personal opinion is that Mohammad was a very clever fellow to portray himself as ‘merely’ a humble man with a divine revelation, yet in reality positioning himself with considerable practical power and influence in his lifetime… and ensuring his future lofty reverence by his followers long after his death. In other words… the worship of him by another name. In truth, it’s a similar end effect by means of a clever misdirection. Naturally, though you’ll never get a muslim to acknowledge or admit it.)

77. Edwin Webb

Yep Joel – this is a complete and utter hypocritical slam-dinger: Muslims say they don’t idolise anyone (as this is unislamic, like biblical commandment 2 re graven images) then they worship mohummed – a 7th century islamic warlord who had 14 wives – one of whom was 9 years old (the age of consent in suadi arabia – for women) – who based his invented islam on the cult of the moon god in mecca (who worshipped allah. Personally, as an atheist, I recognise that my culture came from christianity – so have no problem at all with all the imagery, music, art form my culture. It is a shame that muslims deliberately want to antagonise british people and slag off their culture – one must ask: why don’t they go ahd live in iran?

Worshipping mohummed, some 7th century rapist and paedophile, is perhaps unislamic?? Tell me.

78. Jon

Edwin, I’ve only called you a racist, which is an accusation made by others here, so there must be something in it.

And you call me young and immature, yet it is you who continually makes cheap shots at my expense when I have taken the mature approach of calling for an end to a childish game that you seem intent on playing. It is quite clear to me who the more mature of us is, and just to make sure you understand, it isn’t you.

So keep your pathetic and childish insults to yourself and continue the debate in a mature manner without the personal attacks.

79. Mark

As I understand it how Muslims views and worship the relationship between Allah and Mohammed is completely analogous with Christian theological doctrine regarding God and Jesus, especially so since both are based upon and developed from the Abrahamic God of the Jews. Likewise if it can be said that the Islamic faith took much of its doctrine from traditional pagan religions found in the Arabic world it can also be said that Christianity did exactly the same thing, Christmas, for example, is based upon the pagan festival celebrating the Roman Sun Gods and even the God Mithra had a birthday celebrated on December 25th.

Secondly having many wives was traditional in Arabic culture of the time, further how can Mohammed be considered a paedophile for taking a wife aged nine years when, as you state, the age of consent was nine? We may feel repugnance at such thoughts but a real historian would not let such things sully ones mind with bias and instead analyse the events within the context of the time. Though, as a side note, in protestant Holland the age of consent is 12, hardly much better than 9, wouldn’t you say?

In my experience Muslims don’t want to antagonise anyone, they just want get on with their lives in the way they want and, as long as they don’t brake any laws, we have a moral and legal responsibility to respect that. If you cant then perhaps you are the one who should immigrate to a society which does not respect the individual. Further as a homosexual and a claimed atheist one wonders why you seem so intent in spreading the benefits of Christianity, this is especially perplexing because Christians who still believe in the original Christian doctrine will believe that as an atheist you are damned to hell and as a gay you’ll probably burn their too.

Finally just why are all you BNP nutters suddenly posting here? Obviously you’re not students, recently left Cardiff or lecturers, so is there any particular reason why you’re here?

80. Edwin Webb

Oh F F sake Jon – you have called me a racist because you are an ignorant student who doesn’t know the true meaning of the word!

Your assertion that just because others agree with you about my ‘racism’ make you right is bizarre. No doubt, Osama bin laden’s mate agree with him; no doubt mr Himmler would agree with mr Hitler.

I call you a banana – and my mate agrees – so there must be something in it you banana racist fascist jon!!!

Get real sweetie – and start attacking the real fascist and fifth columnists amongst us – ie the islamist muslims.

And please calm down – no-on here is a memeber of the bnp (but some muslims have racist fascist sexist homophobic views they would be proud of)

81. Edwin Webb

Mark – you seem confused.

Firstly, anyone can post here – and no-one is BNP you fool – though I would support everyone’s freedom of speech – as I believe in liberty. I have (as you will see if you read my posts) NO sympathy with 4th rate mediocre PC academics and am pleased and proud to think for myself.

If muslims in the uk just got on with their lives there would be no problem. They don’t – so there is.

Your logic is brilliant! The age of consent is 9 so let’s all have sex with 9 year olds if some imam says it’s ok!!!!
The Holland age is just a legal technicality – the arabic sense means that young girls are raped in saudi arabis every day! Would you have liked that? To be raped by a fat arab every day when you’re 9 in the name oif islam???

You fool.

82. Abdul-Azim

Wow, such a large amount of responses in such a short amount of time.

Apparently, as a Muslim, I am not able to talk about Islam since my views are biased. Yet scrolling over the past few messages, I am the only one who is presenting tangible and verifable facts (as opposed to strawman fallacies and conspiracy theories).

If anything, by the sheer strength of emotion visible in your posts Edwin, it’s a stronger argument to suggest you are unable to discuss this issue in an fair and unbiased way.

The claims you put forward are also complete internet rubbish – lifted from anti-Islamic sites rather than academic sources.

Allah = Moon God? That’s a pathetic claim thats refuted by the etymology of the word Allah. Harems being a place of sexual gratification is not a true reflection of the Ottoman culture, but a romantacised, orientalist idea adopted in Western art (see Tim Winter’s work on the Ottoman Empire). Again, this concept of the ‘enlightenment’ mentioned with reference to Islam is cultural bigotry – viewing the whole world through the eyes of Western Europe (see Karen Armstrongs work on Islam and the medieval period). Worshipping Muhammed(pbuh)? There is seriously no sense in even responding to this claim as it shows a complete lack of knowledge of Islamic theology and its understanding of God and the position of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

I feel slightly embaressed even debating on these issues, since most are posted in a pseudo-intellectual tone and I’d prefer not to feed into this delusion.

As much as these debates rage on the internet, they very rarely transfer into real life for some reason. Last year the prayer room article sparked a similar controversy, and there were legions of people arguing vehemently against Islam. Yet it coincided with a number of events at Cardiff University which opened up a forum in which to discuss and debate these issues – and none of the forum-posters attended. Frankly, the internet allows individuals to post with no basis to their claims, or evidence for their arguments. In person, such a lack of rigour in debate is easily exposed.

83. Jon

My point proved. Thanks.

I’m not going to repeat myself again, people have given you enough reasons. Good maturity with the continued unnecessary insulting too. I actually said “there must be something in it”, I didn’t say it made it fact. There is a difference, subtle or not.

I don’t like bananas, green or yellow, so maybe I am a banana racist fascist. Honestly, I couldn’t care less and I’m sure they don’t give a damn that I don’t like them.

If there are Islamic extremists at the university, as you have claimed probable, then it is possible they also read things like this. Attack them if you will, but you will probably only end up aggravating them and make them want to kill you even more.

84. Joel

Mark,

Tread carefully. Who here, specifically, are you claiming are BNP members/nutters? Or is this a cheap tactic to stifle discussion? Speak up.

I don’t have to prove any credentials to you, but to be clear, speaking for myself I am not a member of any right-wing organisation, let alone one as pathetic as the BNP.

85. Mark

No, you seem confused. I did not suggest that you couldn’t post here I was merely asking why someone with apparently no affiliation with Cardiff University would want to post on a forum intended for use by Cardiff University students. It just seems a little odd, that’s all. I suspect you knew what I was getting at and just decided to ignore the question, so will you satisfy my curiosity now or subject us to another rant?

You’re not BNP? Really? Well maybe you should be, since it seems they are the political party that best represents your political ideology.

I don’t think there is a problem with Islam in the UK, the problem is people within the Islamic faith, both here and abroad, who wish to use Islam as a springboard for attacks against the west which are purely political, not religious, in nature.

No, I didn’t say we should all have sex with 9 year olds. I said that if you are studying early middle age Arabic history and the age of consent was 9 then anyone who had sex with a girl that age could not be considered a paedophile. I realise the concept of not judging different culture in different periods of time by modern British morals and laws seems difficult for you, but that’s not my problem.

Secondly Dutch law is not simply a legal technicality for the Dutch, it is the law. The point I am making, which obviously flew so far over your head at such a speed I wouldn’t be surprised if you heard a sonic boom, is that what is law and culturally accepted in one culture will be morally repugnant and illegal in another. If two modern, western and protestant nations, the UK and Holland, can have such widely different approaches to sex then why is it so surprising that an Arabic culture from almost 1500 years ago has a different approach again?

There’s no point turning this into a debate about rape since this is not what you originally said, we’re talking about sex between two consenting people of consenting age. I’ll try and simplify this for you as best I can. The idea of having sex with a nine year old girl today is both morally horrific and illegal, but if you were living in the Middle East during the 7th Century then it would seem perfectly normal and completely legal. Got it?

86. Edwin Webb

Oh yeah Abdul – I am sure you support British democracy and you’re such a tolerant guy – and i’m sure so many of your firends and gay people and jews…

Give me a break Abdul!!! You are an islamist – you always think muslims are great and everyone else is misguided. YOu probably refute the evidence of evolution – as you seem to refute the evidence that mohummed was a warlord murdering raping thief of a paedophile. You were probably one of the muslims who invented the lies that jews were behing 9/11 – tell me Abdul, have you got any jewish friends????? Or openly gay ones (of course gay child abuse is common by imams and in mosques and in afghanistan islamist jihadi training camps – but that doesn’t count right? Nor the rape of muslims girls by their fathers…)

Read ‘While europe slept’ or look at the bones of those kiled by islamists – i really won’t waste my time reading crap by left-wing jew-hating morons you quote.

I hope the authorities have an eye in you and your ‘brothers’ in the ‘ummah’.

Your whole religion is a delusion Ali Baba – much like your spelling.

If you can’t say anything intellignet then don’t say anything at all.

By the way, Europe – and Britain – invented modern civilisation when your ancestors were pointing at wheels – so less of the stuck up muslim arab superiority compex!!!! We won – you lost! Get over it – even if you still want to worship a child rapist.

87. Edwin Webb

Mark – you simply do not understand the concept of islamism. For islamists there is no past or future – only the literal intrepretation of the koran – that vile and disgusting cobbled-together text which was written in a dustbowl between the 7th and the 9th centuries by mad rulers, the illiterate rapist, slave-tader and paedophile mohummed being the first – and based on the jewish old testament. So EVERYTHING is in the koran according to these nutty freaks – and that includes dividing the world into believers and infidels – and allowing sex with 9 year olds. NOW – not in the 7th century – but NOW – as in suadi arabia. You are naive and ignorant. Are you a muslim by any chance? Mark take note.
I don’t really care what children like you think as I am far more educated and brainy than you – I am just disturbed that people like you will support the enemy – much like people were disgusted by nazi sympathisizers in the 30s and 40s – because make no mistake about it, if you support Islamism – you are supporting fascism like PC muppet cowards. Get real guys FF sake.

88. Mark

You think the people who inhabited what we now call the Middle East and Arabia were uncivilised compared to Britain!? You really need to brush up on your history Edwin.

89. Mark

I will say this again. I believe in free speech and democracy. If Muslims want to practice their religion here then they have every legal right too and we have a legal and moral duty and responsibility to allow them to do so as long as they follow the laws of the land. If they do not then I have no qualms treating them like any other criminal regardless of race or religion. This is the principle of the British legal system and our culture and society. We believe in freedom, we don’t persecute people who think, act, dress or pray differently to what we’re used too.

You want to see a Nazi supporter? Take a good, long hard look in the mirror Edwin. It is an unmitigating disgrace that a disgusting, ignorant racist like you should call himself British. Our grandfathers fought and died to rid Europe of people like you and you stand here now with the audacity to call yourself a patriot? You, Sir, have no more right to live here than a weasel. Abdul, one of these evil Islamists you keep ranting about, has clearly demonstrated he is more British than you.

Abdul,

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it. Voltaire.

90. Joel

Mark,

Since you quoted the words of Evelyn Beatrice Hall, what of Abdul’s statements do you not agree with?

91. Mark

His religion, in the same way that I disagree with Christian theology and any other organised religion, but he (Abdul) has every legal right to practice his religion since this is a free country and many people have fought and died to protect that right and, if necessary, I would be prepared to join them.

92. Kieran

By the way, Europe – and Britain – invented modern civilisation when your ancestors were pointing at wheels

Edwin – You really need to read up on your history. The work conducted by Islamic mathematicians and scientists between the 7th and 17th centuries forms the basis for our modern mathematics. The Arabic area of the world was the source of most scientific and mathematical breakthroughs in that era.

the koran – that vile and disgusting cobbled-together text

Have you read the koran? I haven’t, and as such wouldn’t make such sweeping statements. So, if you have read it, tell us so, and back up your statements with facts.

Check these out:

Hobson, John M. (2004). The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521547245.

Turner, Howard R. (1997). Science in Medieval Islam: An Illustrated Introduction. University of Texas Press. ISBN 0292781490.

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Al-Haytham.html

93. Edwin Webb

Oh well done Mark – you quote Voltaire and think you’re an intellectual. Bravo. You are so damn blind you cannot see that muslims in the UK – with their isla mist tendencies – are the nazis of our age. I’m not. They are. I am perfectly happy for them to worship their fake god and religion – but they won’t leave it as that. They insist they shoudl have special treatment – with sharia law, and halal food in schools, and the propaganda about how peaceful islam is that has no doubt rotted your undeveloped brain. I bet the islamists can’t believe their luck that idiots like you encourage them – thoyugh they wouldn’t think twice about killing and raping your mother and daughetr of course.

Get an education sonny – read salman rushdie about whatr the West should do (ie not change at all for islamist bullies) or ‘while europe slept’ – google it.

You will learn one day sweetie.

94. Edwin Webb

Kieran, you are wrong – probably brinwashed by your PC teachers.

The arabic world made breakthroughs in mathematics etc – but NOT because they
were muslims. The golden age of islam stopped 1000 years ago. During that age ruling muslims traded slaves, murdered, stole, raped and drak alcohol – this is why north africa is muslim. Hoorah! Why then are we europeans suppose to hang our heads in shaam about slavery eh? When we stopped it!

And, actually, islam ossified in the 11th century – it has made NO progress since – andc the modern world – i n terms of technology, democracy, law etc is very much a european creation. Those islamist fools use exclusively inventions by white christian men to promote their islamist filth (jumbo jets, bombs, guns, paper, the internet, tv etc etc etc). Any culture that relies on suicide bombers HAS LOST (cf Japan circa 1945). Muslims are the losers; we are the winners. Enf of.

And, by the way, most of modern mathematica was a european creation – Newton and Einstein are the two geniuses of mathematics and physics – and the = sign was created IN WALES too.

Thing is though – we must live in the now – we europeans are civilised NOW – muslims are backwards NOW. We should and must teach these savages how to live – in this country and elsewhere. Otherwise we have no future.

95. Rasputin

So advances made my Muslims are because they’re arabs but atrocities committed by arabs are because they’re Muslims?

Your logic is phenomenally flawed – “probably brinwashed by your un-PC teachers”. Enf of.

96. Kieran

I am well aware of Einstein and Newton’s theories, and understand them well for someone who does not take physics. As early as the 600bc the islamic people were questioning the geocentric view of the solar system in favour of the heliocentricity.

islam ossified in the 11th century – it has made NO progress since

Is that so? Well what about Ali Eftekhari, who is the founder of electrochemical nanotechnology, which is about as modern as it gets. How about the creator of paypal, Jawed Karim, who created this revoloutionary system. There are many many more if you just look.

In regards to the equals sign, I myself am a proud welshman, but the equals sign is just that, a sign. It wasn’t revoloutionary, it was just a nice easy way to write “is equal to”. The Arabic number system however, provided more than just an easy way to write numbers. It was decimal, which provides the basis of metric, which has (only recently) finally replaced that horrible british invention of the imperial measurement system.

??The arabic world made breakthroughs in mathematics etc – but NOT because they
were muslims??

Whether they are muslim or not has no bearing at all on their intelligence. Many of these pioneers were muslim, just as many were not.

Those islamist fools use exclusively inventions by white christian men to promote their islamist filth (jumbo jets, bombs, guns, paper, the inter