Llyr Gwyn Lewis
Alan Bennett in The History Boys warned against those ‘who would talk in middle age of the lure of language and their love of words. ‘Words’ said in that reverential way that is somehow Welsh.’ At the risk of falling squarely into this category, I’d like to state why I think Taf-Od, which, thanks to a visionary new editor was only re-born last year, is worth keeping, as it is, and why it should not be translated.
It is with mild amusement and not a small amount of frustration that I have followed the recent debate in the letters page of gair rhydd over the Welsh-language section (if a page can be construed as a section), Taf-Od. Frustration, because the attitude of some of the contributors to the debate is an attitude a Welsh speaker must face almost daily, which turns the frustration into near-fatigue. Amusement, for much the same reasons, and because if one cannot be amused with such attitudes, one would almost surely have given up completely and become a monoglot Englishman many moons ago.
Having such strong feelings on the matter, it would be reasonable to ask why I am so belated in my contribution to this discussion. It is precisely because so many similar discussions exist, and although the people who wrote letters to gair rhydd had some very valid points, these kind of discussions (often found on internet forums) are usually so confoundingly ignorant that they merit no other response than to be ignored. However, this discussion has been so far a very mature one, and I am very grateful to the editors of gair rhydd also for defending the Taf-Od section so vehemently and so sensibly. Indeed, the page has been so well defended by the editor that no additional response was necessary. But I feel it would be beneficial to explain the importance of Taf-Od from a Welsh speaking reader’s point of view.
The argument, as far as I can see, over the need to translate Taf-Od, the question of its existence in a broader context, has been one based on practicalities; the defence of Taf-Od, on the other hand, has been argued in principles. Validly so, I believe, because I am aware that Welsh speakers within the student population in Cardiff, as in most other places in Wales, are in a very small minority; an argument over the Welsh language at this point in time can only be argued in principle and not in practicalities. In fact, Taf-Od stands as a very important principle, a symbol, a blazon for every Welsh speaking student in Cardiff. Yet those very students are partly to blame for the attitudes which prevail in the aforementioned letters.
It is because of the very laziness of the Welsh students of Cardiff that there is so little Welsh in the paper. The page is edited by a small number of people, two or three, who must contribute to it every week with virtually no support by any other potential Welsh reporters, myself included. It would be impractical to have the whole of Gair Rhydd in Welsh, it has been argued. Of course it would – what Welsh speaking student in the whole of Cardiff has the time, the commitment, or indeed the money, to translate all the material weekly? If gair rhydd existed in Aberystwyth, at least half the paper would have to be in Welsh, or else risk facing the wrath of the many students of Pantycelyn. Here in Cardiff, apathy is rife, and English speakers have benefited from the absolute complacency of Welsh-language students.
We stick to our own, we speak Welsh amongst ourselves in our Welsh-language flats in Senghennydd; we can socialise almost exclusively in Welsh. We are safe here; we can half-believe that the Welsh language is strong. We can almost believe that Cardiff is changing for the best – what need have we to take Welsh to the world? Let them come to us if they want to know about it – we’re not stopping anyone from joining the Welsh Society (that’s the Gym Gym that you see every year in the societies fayre – and no, it’s not a society where you go to the gym twice; it’s short for ‘Y Gymdeithas Gymraeg’, which means ‘The Welsh Society). The sad truth, however, is that although there are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff than in Gwynedd, officially the ‘Welshest’ county in the world, the language is invisible, barely audible, in the city. Things are slowly getting better, of course – Ffion James has just been elected as Welsh Language Officer for the Union, and hopefully with her hard work the language’s presence can begin to be felt there. But it will inevitably be a slow process. That’s why, when an English-speaking student has come to Cardiff on the premise that he or she can go about his or her everyday business just like in England, without the time-wasting bother of that silly dead language, and hasn’t found anything yet to prove otherwise – when he or she stumbles across a page completely in Welsh in a supposedly English-language paper, it’s uncomfortable. It’s dangerous. It’s the written form of the old myth of the Englishman walking into a pub in Wales where they all speak English, and when he walks in they all turn to Welsh and speak about him. Is this article saying something about us, you think, a joke that we’re not allowed in on because we speak English?
In most cases, you can afford not to flatter yourself. The pages are a mixture of reviews, news items, political journalism, sport – just like the rest of the paper, only in Welsh. The subject matter, however, is irrelevant – it’s the fact that, in a sea of Englishness, there is one Welsh page, a reminder that there are people who would like to conduct their everyday life through the language their mother taught them, but can’t; there must always be compromise. You say that most Welsh speakers can speak English as well; I don’t know a single Welsh person over the age of five who can’t speak English – that’s because without it, you just couldn’t get by. Is that fair? In my own country, I can’t go down to the shop and ask for something at the counter in my own language. Many of my friends can’t attend lectures in the language of their choice. Please don’t insult me by asking me to translate something that is such a part of my identity, which stands for so much of the culture and of the literature that I love, to be consumed by the monoglot masses. To translate a Welsh article would deprive it of its Welshness; as the editor has already suggested, so much is lost in translation.
Now you can see why I don’t very often reply to these kinds of discussions; they almost always turn into a self-satisfied, highly defensive rant. But they must be so by their very essence, because I’m replying to an attack on something which is very close to my heart. Now that the rant’s over, allow me to make a few suggestions based on practicality rather than high principles:
If the Welsh section is to be translated into English, it entails that the rest of the paper should be translated to Welsh. Impossible, impractical, I hear you say; then let us at least make an effort to translate some of the other English stories within gair rhydd. It’s only fair.
Rather than translate the whole articles, why not provide a glossary at the bottom of the page, containing some common vocabulary and a pronunciation guide, so that the English reader can get the gist of the article and pick up on a few Welsh words at the same time.
In a similar vein, I’m sure that you’re at least aware of a Welsh speaker or two on your course. If you’re eager to find out what’s in the article, ask them to give you a quick summary. Or even ask them if they’d like to go for a pint and have a chat about these things, hear their views – they might agree with you wholeheartedly and think I’m a nationalist pig.
We should also realise that this discussion has been a very healthy one, in a sense. It’s succeeded in doing what Welsh speakers have failed for so long – it has brought the Welsh language to the attention of a broader readership. It’s been a mature discussion, with two people putting forward some interesting points, and the responses, too, by the editor and by a sympathetic reader, have been encouraging. Not in a million years would I ask these people not to contribute for fear of being opposed; indeed, I thank them for their views and I would implore any other reader who feels strongly for either side of the argument to submit their views. I realise that I am, after all, in a minority here. Nevertheless this discussion has raised some valid questions regarding the rights of Welsh and English speakers within the University.
Perhaps the most important suggestion of all, though, is a suggestion to the Welsh-speaking students of Cardiff. Come out of your coccoons – it’s far too safe there. Take your language with you and show it to people. Make them aware that we are still here, trying to live our lives in Welsh, make it an audible, visible language; explain that it’s not a way of slagging English people off in front of them, or a quirky way to swear, that it’s a way of life. But most of all, for God’s sake, get writing, help those dedicated few who tirelessly churn out this page week after week, help the section to expand and to be more worthy of the Welsh capital’s student newspaper. Make Taf-Od worth saving.
Huw Alun Foulkes
Wedi darllen y llythyron yn ymwneud â chyfieithu Taf-Od yn ‘Gair Rhydd’ mae nifer o’r dadleuon yn disgyn rhwng dwy stôl. Fel mae’r rhan fwyaf wedi datgan yn barod – un dudalen yr wythnos yn unig sy’n uniaith Gymraeg, mae dros ddeg ar hugain yn uniaith Saesneg. Yn sicr, nid oes gennyf broblem ynglŷn â chyfieithu’r dudalen i’r Saesneg er mwyn bod y rheini nad ydynt yn medru iaith y nefoedd yn gallu darllen am wir draddodiad a phrofiadau diwylliannol, Cymreig myfyrwyr ein prifddinas.
Fodd bynnag, a fyddai golygydd ‘Gair Rhydd’ yn sicrhau fod cyfieithydd yn cael ei dalu i gyfieithu’r dudalen? Nid tasg hawdd fyddai sicrhau fod y cyfieithu’n gywir ac o safon gan fod nifer o’r erthyglau yn ymdrin yn benodol â thestunau neu ddigwyddiadau Cymreig sy’n digwydd drwy gyfrwng yr iaith Gymraeg.
Os mai dwyieithrwydd yw gofynion y rhai sy’n cwyno, yna pam na allwn ni’r Cymry Cymraeg fynnu ein bod yn cael darllen ‘Gair Rhydd’ drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn ogystal â’r Saesneg? Mae niferoedd y myfyrwyr Cymraeg sy’n dod i Brifysgol Caerdydd yn esgyn yn syfrdanol bob blwyddyn ac o ganlyniad, dim ond cynyddu wnaiff y galw am ddeunyddiau Cymraeg gan yr Undeb yn y dyfodol. Soniodd un o’r llythyrwyr yn ‘Gair Rhydd’ yr wythnos ddiwethaf fod llunio ‘Taf-Od’ yn uniaith Gymraeg yn sarhau’r darllenwyr Saesneg eu hiaith. Onid yw gweddill y tudalennau yn sarhau’r darllenwyr Cymraeg? Oni ddylem yn ein gwlad ein hunain, mewn prifysgol yn ein prifddinas gael dewis iaith? Siawns y gall y Saeson yn ein plith ddioddef un dudalen nad ydynt yn eu deall?
Fel arall, mae croeso iddyn nhw fynychu’r niferus ddosbarthiadau nos sy’n cael eu cynnig i ddysgwyr yr iaith. Beth am gynnig fod ambell gymal neu air yn ymddangos ar dudalennau ‘Taf-Od’ bob wythnos i gynorthwyo’r darllenwyr? Gwn fod hyn wedi digwydd ar raddfa fechan yn y gorffennol ond efallai y gallwn sicrhau fod colofn wythnosol yn canolbwyntio ar hyn?
Yn sicr, mae llawer o sylwedd i’r erthyglau Cymraeg sy’n ymddangos yn wythnosol ond byddwn yn dadlau nad oes digon o swmp yma. Beth am geisio sicrhau fod MWY o Gymraeg o fewn y papur? Mae digonedd o fyfyrwyr â’r ddawn i lunio erthyglau bachog yn yr iaith Gymraeg ac heb os, diogrwydd myfyrwyr sydd i gyfrif yn rhannol am y diffyg Cymraeg.
Pe byddai mwy o erthyglau Cymraeg, efallai na fyddai dadl yn codi? Hynny ydi, byddai’r myfyrwyr Saesneg sy’n gwrthwynebu erthyglau uniaith Gymraeg yn sylweddoli fod gennym le a statws digonol o fewn y papur ac o bosib, yn derbyn fod rhaid neilltuo erthyglau penodol ar gyfer yr iaith Gymraeg yn unig?
Mae’n gwestiwn gen i os fyddai mwyafrif y darllenwyr Saesneg yn dangos diddordeb mewn adolygiad sy’n trafod gig rhai o fandiau amlycaf y sin roc Gymraeg neu’n ysu am glywed hanesion y Gym Gym yn y Ddawns a’r Eisteddfod Ryng-Golegol. Yn sicr, mae angen hybu’r diwylliant a’r iaith ond mewn gwirionedd, faint o’r darllenwyr fyddai’n gwerthfawrogi’r ymdrech i gyfieithu? Cwestiwn arall sy’n codi yw pa mor effeithiol fyddai’r cyfieithu?
Yn sicr, fynnwn i ddim gweld cyfieithiadau slafaidd sy’n llesteirio’r erthyglau gwreiddiol. Yn yr un modd, mae’n amhosib cyfieithu ambell erthygl Saesneg i unrhyw iaith heb golli gwreiddioldeb a chyfoeth y dweud. Byddai’r darllenwyr Saesneg yn beirniadu’r erthygl Saesneg yn unig. Dim ond wrth gyfieithu’n safonol a phroffesiynol felly y byddai sicrhau ymateb deg.
Mae’n destun gofid erbyn hyn nad oes digon o sylw yn cael ei roi i’r iaith Gymraeg ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd o ystyried y ddarpariaeth mewn prifysgolion eraill. Peth da yw fod dadl fel hyn yn codi a hynny’n dangos fod lle i’r iaith Gymraeg o fewn sefydliad sy’n echrydus o Seisnig ei naws. Cyfieithwch yn gywir ac yn safonol a does gen innau fel amryw un arall ddim problem! Mae’r rhod yn dechrau troi . . . a’n lle ninnau fel Cymry Cymraeg yw dal ein tir.
Sion Ifan
“Everyone can speak, read and understand English…so why bother?”
The recent Taf-od debate has sparked a few heated discussions on my way to lectures over the past week or so. One point that keeps cropping up is the suggestion that everybody can understand English and therefore there is no point in having a Welsh-only page as it instantly “discriminates” against the majority of students who cannot speak or read Welsh. According to the arguments that I have read in the Letters to the Editor and on the gair rhydd Web forums, many feel that providing a translation of the Taf-od articles would let non-Welsh speakers understand and enjoy them too. I see this as a perfectly valid point, and as many Taf-od articles are on topics such as “Welshness” or the Welsh language, translations could provide a beneficial and indeed necessary insight for non-Welsh speaking students into values and opinions that they would not have come across before arriving at Cardiff University.
However, as I am writing this, I cannot help but feel slightly uneasy. It is almost as if translating the only Welsh page in gair rhydd haunts me as being a painful compromise; a defeat by the monoglot English speaker over my much loved and valued mother tongue. Is there really a need to translate everything into English when so many other articles are published every week without a single word of Welsh? Placing an English translation next to the Welsh article not only threatens the whole ethos of Taf-od as the only contribution of Welsh language journalism, but also gives the impression that the Welsh language cannot stand on its own; that it needs an English translation in order to be complete and in order for the masses to understand it. Successive British governments have always used the English language as a tool of unification and subjugation. It is and has been a contentious matter over the centuries in all parts of the world. But here is not the time or place to discuss British Imperial history. I would just like to humbly suggest that it is only when the monoglot English speaker has shown respect to other languages and countries which came under its jurisdiction that a lot of needless antagonism has been done away with. The English language is the fantastic means of communication. The benefit of having a grasp of English is of such high importance to me as I live my life from day to day in a truly bilingual manner. Of all the world’s languages, English is the language that has adapted best; it has borrowed from languages all over the globe and has enriched the lives of people everywhere. It is not threatened with extinction by any other language. It will only however receive the true respect it deserves by showing due respect to the minority languages spoken in all bilingual countries where English is the lingua franca.
I’m sure, as an English-speaking student coming to Wales to study, it is very easy to think that the Welsh language only exists in a little bubble of tight-knit groups of students, as it is English that is heard most often on the streets and campuses. However, the Welsh Society (Y Gym Gym) is one of the Student Union’s largest societies this year with over 200 members on its books. There are also thousands of students leaving Welsh-medium and bilingual secondary schools, coming to study at Cardiff, their capital city, using their Welsh from day to day.
One thing certainly remains open to debate; don’t the Taf-od articles need to be translated into English as much as there is need for more Welsh throughout the paper? Without a doubt, if Welsh articles were not confined to only one page in gair rhydd, then I wouldn’t find a translation of Taf-od such an issue and a threat. Why not dare join a welsh class and get learning some basics. There is nothing better than seeing people trying their best to get to grips with some Welsh. It simply shows appreciation and respect to what is a beautiful and ever-flourishing, precious gem.

1. Alex Winter
There seems absolutely no reason for there to be Welsh-language page as there is no-one who can speak only Welsh and one doubts if the issued raised on that page haven’t been discussed already.
If there is to be such a page for nostalgic purposes, then the question of whether it should be translated is a novel one. There is enough material in the paper: read that and let the nostalgia be.
2. Aisling
The issue is hardly about people only speaking Welsh.
Is Welsh about nostalgia? I took a Welsh class in this university last summer. I’m not Welsh, I didn’t do it out of nostalgia, nor do I get the impression those who speak it do it out of nostalgia.
I fear that my bad grammar would be mocked if I wrote an article in welsh, but I would like to try. I signed up to Taf-Od’s mailing list, but i never heard anything.
3. Rachelle
“it’s uncomfortable. It’s dangerous. It’s the written form of the old myth of the Englishman walking into a pub in Wales where they all speak English, and when he walks in they all turn to Welsh and speak about him. Is this article saying something about us, you think, a joke that we’re not allowed in on because we speak English?”
Is what I said last time, only better.
&&as a Swansea born Welsh learner, I think the idea of a glossary and pronunciation guide is an excellent one, I’d certainly enjoy that.
4. Hanna
First of all, I would just like to stress that speaking Welsh is not about nostalgia. Of course I am equally bilingual, but Welsh is my first language – i speak, write and think in it, not because I have some romantic dream that someday every one in Wales will speak Welsh, to be honest, I hardly think about speaking Welsh being a big deal, because it’s just the way I live my life. I understand that most of the students at Cardiff University are English speakers, but yet again, they have chosen to study at the capital of Wales – like it or not, a country where a bilingual policy exists. We are not forcing our language on anyone – but what we do want is a bit of respect to those who do live their lives through the medium of Welsh (yes, we do exist) and if gair rhydd were to translate the only page we have, we would lose all of our the small identity we have in the paper, which reflects our identity and place in the University. Although I do agree that the idea of a glossary and pronunciation guide could be of use for some, but yet again, if the people that really want to understand the Taf-Od page really did want to know what is said in the articles – why not learn Welsh themselves? Oh, because it’s easier just to get a translation. No. This is not the way forward for the Welsh language, it’s by bending backwards to people like this that the language is in its minority state in the first place. If you really want to understand the page, why not give it a go and try to learn Welsh – there are hundreds of classes in this city and I for one would be more than happy to help any one who wants to learn it.
5. Ffion
I have been following this debate for some time now, and I’m also disgusted with myself for even wanting to check the forum regularly to read such comments.
I will not go as far as to say that the comments on the forum have been ‘insulting’ to myself or any other Welsh speaker, as I believe this is a total waste of time.
Where do the people that have commented regularly find the time and effort to do so? Can’t they put their energy into something a lot more sensible/useful? I wish I had the time and effort to worry about things that didn’t even concern me.
As many have said before, ‘Taf-od’ is a Welsh page. Simple as. No debate needed. It includes information to the Welsh students amongst us (and yes there are plenty of us, even if we are a minority). Would the non-Welsh speakers amongst us really want to know about a Welsh poem that won a top prize, and how it uses ‘cynghannedd’ (‘cynghannedd’ barely exits in English or any other language come to think of it) and how the ‘cyflythrennu’ and the ‘cyseinedd’ work well together to create a certain feeling? And I wonder how interesting it would be for all you non-Welsh speakers to understand how the ‘ ‘n’ wreiddgoll’ can cause such controversy….?
Didn’t think so…
As has been mentioned already, we are in fact in Wales, the capital city of Wales to be precise. This country is part of me, and my whole being revolves around Wales and it’s culture, which may sound rather outrageous to some of you out there. As I’m writing at this very moment in time, I wonder if any speakers of the English language will ever understand what it’s like to have something so special as a language, a culture, and a real identity . I pity those who can only speak the English language, as you have to share it with billions of people around the world. What’s special about that? I believe that the root of this whole debate is plain jealousy? Do you envy the fact that the Welsh have their own language and identity that you migrants are not part of?
And as a final point, I must take notice to the fact that there is so little respect being shown here on the forum towards something so close to so many people’s hearts.
6. Sian
I am only now commenting on this debate for two reasons; firstly I am uncomfortable expressing myself in any other language other than Welsh and secondly as this is such a ridiculous debate fuelled by ignorance I felt that commenting was a waste of time.
I wonder how many of you who are so fiercely against taf-od (an essential part of ‘Gair Rhydd’ as we are in fact in the capital city of Wales) actually understand or are interested to learn about the history of this country in which we are studying. We have been battling for equal status and recognition for the Welsh language for decades, how many of you know of Gwynfor Evans? And how he fasted to secure S4C, the Welsh television channel. I am by no means a ‘Welsh-nash’, but this debate grieves me as I think of what such brave and dignified people would think of such drivel.
7. Lois
If I’m being honest, I think this whole debate is completely and utterly unnecessary. But because it has come this far I felt I should contribute. Not only as a Welsh person, but as a Cardiff University Student. It has been mentioned before that it is the capital of Wales, and Welsh should be expected to be seen around the city, and the university. But for monoglot English speakers the absence of the Welsh language at the Union and in its newspaper probably passes you by un-noticed. The Taf-Od is the only representation of Welsh speakers, and Welsh events that the Union has had to offer since I’ve been a student here. And now you ask us, if there is any point to a Welsh page? In a Students’ Union Newspaper that is dominated by the English language, all we ask for is one page. Do not accuse us of being racist, and excluding non-Welsh speakers when you have a whole newspaper and magazine that without Taf-Od might as well be a newspaper from any university in England.
8. Elliw
Can I begin by thanking Llyr, Huw and Sion for putting what is on many people’s minds onto paper.
As I have previously contributed to this debate, I will keep this comment to a minimum.
I honestly believe that this debate has gone beyond all reason. Taf-Od is simply a way for the Welsh speaking student body to express our views on matters that are important to us. I find it hard to comprehend that Welsh-language affairs are of much importance to anyone except Welsh speakers.
As has been afore mentioned, I urge anyone with genuine interest to attend the numerous Welsh classes that are held around Cardiff.
I find it highly amusing that we as Welsh speaking students have not felt the need to complain about the lack of Welsh in the rest of gair rhydd, yet one little page of Welsh-language journalism has resulted in cries of prejudice and racism. Get a grip.
9. Joel
I don’t speak Welsh, but I come from a predominantly English speaking part of Wales, so I suppose in a way I am caught in the middle of this debate with regards to loyalty. My nationality on the one side, my spoken language on the other.
If some of the English students in Cardiff are really so bothered about this single page in Welsh, why not enrol in some free Welsh classes which the University reguarly holds?
If you’re attitude is that “nobody speaks only speaks Welsh anyway so what’s the point?”, then why did you choose to attend a university in Wales? I’m sure I speak on behalf of the majority of Welsh students, and a large number of English ones too, when I say if that is your attitude, go home. It’s not befitting of somebody in University education.
10. Gwenno
If you go to Spain on holiday, you will see, hear and live Spanish and try to fit in as much as you can, even if it’s only the odd little word here and there it’s an effort. Same goes for any other country, so why is this even an issue in Wales? What’s the difference? Why should we have to fight to have a mere page in the Gair Rhydd? As the newspaper is called, translated into English-FREE WORD! I cannot believe as a Welsh person myself, and as a final year student in Cardiff University that the Welsh language has to be defended in its own country! I’m always criticised for speaking Welsh and being called rude by the English if I happen to speak Welsh with a Welsh friend. Such ignorance strengthens the rivalry between Wales and England. I’m sorry to have to say that but what do you expect when a stunt like this is being pulled?! Keep Taf-Od, no questions asked, it shouldn’t even be a debate.
11. Mark
If the welsh speakers are content with a single welsh only page to placate them then I don’t see the harm, it’s all rather quaint really.
12. Anni
I would like to note that this discussion is nothing but a positive step forward in the constant struggle towards acquiring awareness of the Welsh language, culture and way of life in the university and Cardiff. The argument that claims that everyone can speak English, and therefore can afford to lead their lives through the medium of that language only, is a misleading notion. I consider myself very lucky to have a relatively good grasp on such an important and powerful second language, however as Welsh is my first language, communicating in English requires additional effort and skill. For a first language Welsh speaker it is about translating and expressing Welsh thoughts, opinions, observations and even simple banter. The English language is not a natural tool for many first language Welsh speakers, we are learners after all. Regarding translating the welsh section of Gair Rhydd, I too feel that it would be a ‘painful compromise’ (Sion Ifan’s words). The articles are written with a Welsh foundation (agwedd/meddylfryd Cymraeg) that cannot be translated.
This debate is nothing but a call-out to all Welsh speakers that care about the language to pull their finger out and contribute to the Welsh culture of the 21st century.
13. Greg
I do not have to defend the Welsh Language here in Wales.
If it’s that much of an issue to you, as soon as you’ve finished your courses, leave Cardiff and Wales and go live in England.
14. Naomi
Firstly, I would expect intelligent, academic, university students to be logical and respectful of another language and culture. Further, I would absolutely expect them to be respectful of the Welsh language when studying at a university, in WALES. However the fact that this debate merely exists shows complete ignorance towards the language, its speakers and its heritage. Wales is a bilingual country- that means two languages- and to be honest, it isn’t. The English language dominates over the Welsh language and we, as Welsh-speakers, are a minority. It is beyond ridiculous to claim that one page in the Gair Rhydd is discriminating against the English majority, when the other thirty-five discriminate against the Welsh minority. Most welsh- speaking university students have received their entire education through the medium of Welsh, yet, to receive higher education, it must be through the medium of English. Why deny us of one single page in our university paper that is in Welsh? Taf- od is one Welsh page in the newspaper at a university with a bilingual policy, a point some people in this debate may have failed to notice.
15. Jamie
‘If you’re attitude is that “nobody speaks only speaks Welsh anyway so what’s the point?”, then why did you choose to attend a university in Wales?’
Presumably because Cardiff is one of the most prestigious universities in the UK. I’d be very surprised if many English students here factored the fact it’s in Wales into their decision.
16. Huw
Surely there can’t be a problem with only a single page in Welsh? If you do have a problem, as many have said, go and learn the language in night classes and stop being so ignorant. As I have already stated in my article, I have no problem if the translation would be of a high standard and as many have already quoted, much of the translation would lose its original appeal as would any English article if translated into any other language.
It’s only a page and as Elliw stated – you’re more than welcome to get a grip!
17. Aled
What a load of bloody nonsense. Does the title of this paper not mean anything to you narrow minded non-welsh amongst us. ‘Rhydd’ translated to the english language is ‘Free’, freedom for the welsh to enjoy a read as much as the english. If one page of a whole paper being in the welsh language upsets you then you have really sad lives. Da iawn Ffion for bringing up the very valid point that non-welsh speakers would barely understand cynghanedd let alone appreciate it. To be living in the capital city of Wales and have the cheek to bring up such an issue cries out stupidity and lack of cultural importance and knowledge!
18. Karen
I believe the argument extends much further than mere “attitude” towards our ‘silly’ language, it’s also about how countries in the UK are currently getting along. The close, loving, community spirit, found in the Welsh language, is in danger of being lost. I have a close friend who lives in London and, even though the things I teach her in Welsh are very basic, it is the respect that I get in return as a Welsh person and her sense of enjoyment that is definately key. I personally don’t see why one would NOT be interested in our language- it’s part of UK culture; we are certainly not living in a bubble. Is it not better to have a little something about everything rather than believing that only you and your beliefs are correct?
19. Eurgain
The Welsh language has an equal status to the English language within Wales and surely, with Cardiff being the capital of this country, its university’s newspaper should reflect this. This is not the case. Denying one Welsh page in the paper shows a disregard and disrespect towards the Welsh language and it’s speakers within the university. I believe that this debate serves an important purpose, although most of it is fuelled by ignorange and lack of understanding of the importance and significance of the Welsh language.
Welsh is my first language and I view this, not a matter of nostalgia but as what comes natural to me as it’s my way of life.
Comprimise is not an option.
20. Mark
Actually the Welsh Language Act doesn’t apply to businesses and the Union, despite being tied to the University that is bound by the Act, is still technically a business (or charity, in either case the same applies). So since Gair Rhydd is published by an organised that is not bound by the Act then compromise is indeed an option, in fact its so much of an option that only a few pages are Welsh only presumably because to reproduce the whole paper bilingually just to appease the few Welsh nationalists who have an inferiority complex would be detrimentally costly and somewhat annoying.
If a Welsh speaker thought language was such an important factor in determining their choice of university then they made a very poor one coming to a university that is situated in a city which is effectively English due to decades of Anglicisation and where more people speak Punjabi than Welsh, which is probably more useful in a multicultural city anyway. If you wanted to go to a University where all your linguistical peeves could be accommodated for then you should have gone to Aber.
21. Tom
Firstly, may I congratulate the editors and contributors of Taf-Od for challenging and interesting articles which fully deserve their place within the paper.
Historically, Welsh journalism has been a vital forum for debate and opinion in times when Wales did not have a strong political voice. Thankfully, with devolution, this has changed but that does not mean that the importance of Welsh journalism has lessened in any way.
Gair Rhydd has a responsibility to develop the talent of young journalists. This must be the case for those who choose to write in Welsh as well as those who choose to write in English. For if a Welsh Student at a Welsh University is not given the opportunity to see his or her work in print, or to see it only by compromising on space and content, then it will have a detrimental effect on the future of Welsh journalism.
I hope that the wider implications of this issue can be taken into account. I especially hope that Gair-Rhydd and the students of Cardiff can take pride in the importance of its contribution to the rich heritage of Welsh journalism.
22. Huw
So Cardiff University is just a place for English monoglots? We’re not campaigning about turning the whole University Welsh orientated . . . we only want a little bit of respect.
Of course the Welsh language was a factor when choosing an University – that’s why most of us chose the Welsh flats at Senghennydd Court as our first option so that we could socialise in the language that we’re most comfortable speaking. Aber is not entirely Welsh either but at least the Union there has some respect towards the Welsh language.
The number of Welsh speaking students have risen considerably during the past few years at Cardiff University and therefore it is not a dying language. You should only open your eyes to the feast of culture that we as Welsh speakers take part in this city. Why not celebrate that you live in a multi-cultured city and show some respect towards other cultures rather than being so narrow minded?
That’s asking too much I suppose.
23. Huw
I cannot see how this is a question of nationalism. The comments above reflect a feeling of patriotism and a natural defence of what is close to people’s hearts. An example of nationalism would be to publish ‘gair rhydd’ entirely in Welsh as a means of forcing Welsh upon others. People should perhaps read up on the differences between the two words.
The university has developed in an environment of Welsh dimension. Although most work is carried out through the medium of English, it has been shaped by this dimension, otherwise it would could be any other university in England.
In response to Mark noting that Punjabi would be of more use, it is a rather silly example. I have not been forced into a situation where my skills in that language were needed here in Wales, however skills in Welsh does seem defficient when needed otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation!
24. Aled
Mark – you bring up many points that make no sense. Don’t debate for the sake of debating in the way that this has all started just for the sake of it! You call us the ”...few welsh nationalists who have an inferiority complex…”. If you had your facts straight, you would realise that the fuss was not kicked up by any of us ”...few welsh nationalists who have an inferiority complex…”. We’re merely trying to protect out rights. I’m sure if the Punjab community requested a page in ‘Gair Rhydd’ there would be no issue and rightly so. What i’m getting at is that we all have a right, and pardon me for saying, but the welsh more than anyone, afterall…THIS IS WALES GUYS, AND IT’S NOT GOING ANYWHERE! Hey, we’ll even try getting you some discounted welsh lessons;)
25. Bethan
As a first language welsh speaker I decided to come to Cardiff so as to experience city life but also to be part of a Welsh community, and Cardiff has not let me down. I communicate and socialize solely through the Welsh language with my friends and live in a house where everyone speaks Welsh. As Hanna previously said, we do not think speaking Welsh is a big deal, it’s our way of life, we don’t question it so why should others? Speaking welsh is so much more than speaking another language, it’s being part of the culture of our country and why shouldn’t gair rhydd reflect this?! It’s just one page, it should be more, however I believe that we should have the right to read our mother tongue in our university’s paper. We are not being rude, racists or ignorant we simply want to read about affairs that are important to welsh language speakers in Welsh!!
26. Mark
Under the relevant legislation you do not have the right to coerce a Union Newspaper in Wales to print bilingually. That Gair Rhydd do is entirely up to their editorial team and you should thank them for showing you the token effort they do instead of kicking up a fuss for no reason. You’re Welsh and I am Welsh yet we’re both perfectly content speaking in English since we both go to an English dominated University in an English dominated City with an English dominated history. That isn’t going to change no matter how much you whine about it. If you want to start a Welsh language newspaper then go right ahead, no ones stopping you, but the Union has neither the legal or moral reason to accede to your demands. End of story.
27. Sian
As I have already once commented, I was not going to do so again, but after reading Mark’s comment about our ‘linguistical peeves’ I was obliged to do so.
This is not as Mark suggested a matter of merely following a Language Act, it’s about respect for the language and culture of the Country in which you are studying. If you were only to open your mind to a different culture it might enrich your time while studying in Wales.
But this is not either about pointing the finger and dividing Cardiff’s students, this debate has begun due to lack of education about the Welsh language and culture. Although I am glad, as many have earlier noted that Welsh issues are brought to people’s attentions, the complete lack of respect is shocking, astounding and quite frankly appalling.
I have been lucky enough not to have to voice my opinions or concerns about the Welsh language in such a way before, and as this proves how much of a way of life the Welsh language really is to some of your fellow students you might think again before commenting in such a degrading manner about people’s lives.
As many have said before me, is one page, where we can express our unique culture too much to ask within our own country? Why not take pride in our multicultural newspaper and city that offers another dimension to your culture?
28. Aisling
This debate wasn’t begun in GR by Welsh nationalists demanding a bilingual paper, it was begun by a letter from an English student who wanted it to be translated, to which Gr’s editor repsonded by saying it was the compromise that would best include welsh, which was followed the next week by another student complaining about that response.
The upshot of all of it seems to be that Taf-Od is a welsh-language section and should stay so, not because of legal matters, but simply out of respect.
dwi’n byw yng nGhaerdydd achos dwi’n hoffi Gymru. Hoffwn i astudio ‘n Irweddon. Ond byddwn i angen arian am hwnnw.
29. Gareth
Welsh is a way of life, not an unnecessary annoyance. Sure, many of youe European friends may speak fantastic English, but if you went to university in Berlin, would it be too much to accept a page in German in the student newspaper? ‘But everyone speaks English now’ – What a deluded, ignorant argument.
30. Emyr
Aisling: Bron yn gywir! dylai’r briflythyren aros ar ddechrau’r gair wrth dreiglo, a does ddim angen treiglo “Cymru” ar ol “hoffi”. Pob lwc!
Perhaps one should turn the same “axe” towards some sporting aspects? Whilst I enjoyed watching fencing during the olympics, the minor coverage it achieves in GR is of no interest to probably a large portion of the student populous.
However, I see GR as a medium for the expression of student views on mainstream events, news on student events and issues, and a forum for the interests of student which would not be covered by any other outlet.
This last point is probably the justification for IMG coverage which generally amounts to a kickabout in the park (particularly with the disappointment that is IMG rugby). There are probably more students interested in reading Welsh articles than there are interested in some of the minor sports or the less interesting political issues. Should a punjabi or urdu speaking student wish to write about the recent violence in India through their own language, I will not object.
31. Vicki Johnson
Even though I am English, and can’t understand the articles on Taf-Od I think it is important that it remains in the paper, afterall this is a Welsh Uni. If this is removed then where will it end. At the moment all of the signs in the student’s union have a translation and our graduation ceremonies are carried out in English and Welsh, will this end too? Will the newspaper itself change its name? I can’t believe it’s really got to this point, in my mind there’s no question, the page stays.
32. Aisling
Emyr – Diolch! dwi’n ddim deall treigladau, neu gramadeg. Serch hynny, Gwnes i y hwb.
Iaith-cymraeg slyw – :)
(that better make sense, or i’m just embarassing myself)
33. Phil Dore
I’m English, and don’t speak Welsh, but I have absolutely no objection to a Welsh language page in Gair Rhydd. It’s just one page. What’s the problem? If it isn’t translated into English, I’m sure I can find something to read elsewhere.
34. Mark
Yes, Sian, but as I have said the language and culture of Cardiffians is overwhelmingly English so there’s little reason to show respect to Welsh speakers here than in any other English University. I certainly have no problem with a single Welsh page in Gair Rhydd but, as I have said, there are no requirements that the editorial team give you even that, so just be content with what you have.
I’m Welsh and, frankly, I find the desire of a small minority of my countrymen to keep Welsh alive ‘as a way of live’ as not merely an annoyance but utterly embarrassing in today’s world.
35. Huw
It seems that Mark is trying his best to indirectly create a rift between Welsh speakers and the team behind ‘gair rhydd’.
So far there has been a friendly, co-operating and respecting relationship between both parties for which others and myself are grateful. It will not be spoilt by an ignoramus with a political agenda.
36. Pseud O'Name
I agree with all the people who agree that Taf-od should be kept and feel that it’s not one bit strange that suddenly a shit load of people have decided to come onto Gair Rhydd to post comments in favour of keeping the Welsh section.
37. Sian
Well, Mark, you are wrong on MANY levels! ‘I have said the language and culture of Cardiffians is overwhelmingly English’ Your life in Cardiff may be through English only, but mine and the majority of my friends at Cardiff is not. As we all except that you live your student life here in English maybe you should attempt to believe that others live here solely through the medium of Welsh, or is opening your mind that little bit too difficult? ‘little reason to show respect to Welsh speakers here than in any other English University’ – quite frankly absurd! ‘the desire of a small minority of my countrymen to keep Welsh alive ‘as a way of live’ as not merely an annoyance but utterly embarrassing in today’s world.’ – Firstly, it’s a way of life not a way of live. Living life through the medium of Welsh is not a choice for me personally as I was born into a Welsh speaking household and attended Welsh medium primary and secondary schools. It’s who I am. You are of course, entitled to your opinion. Thankfully I can declare that I neither value or respect it.
38. Emyr
Well, if something you felt quite strongly about was being threatened, you’d feel quite strongly about it wouldn’t you?
Mark: Your claim to welshness is a mere accident of birth. It sounds like there was nothing welsh about your family or your upbringing. I guess you could just shut up and settle for being “British”, but that just wouldn’t suit you now would it?
39. Rachelle
Even though I can’t (yet!!!) read Taf-Od by myself I’m really relieved so many proper Welsh speakers are defending it because I think sometimes the dominant majority need to be told ‘it’s not all about you’ and ‘you can’t be automatically involved with everything’. They’re way too used to being the majority. Like, I’m a gay woman and sometimes my straight mates just don’t get why gay magazines exist and ask me questions like ‘don’t they have straight people in them?’ and ‘are they anti-heterosexual?’ – I think it’s a very similar thing.
Would just like to say though that I appreciate cynghannedd&even though it’s an English language taught module, I’m still looking forward to taking 20th Century Welsh Literature in the Spring.
40. Tom
I regret to hear that Mark thinks that Welsh is ‘utterly embarrassing in today’s world.’ But maybe he should realise that other minority languages throughout Europe and the world are respected and given equality in all aspects of life.
Just like those languages Welsh is increasing its role, especially in governance which is showing since of true bilingualism. This is nothing to be embarrased of and is a sign that Welsh is catching up with developments in other parts of ‘today’s world.’ Maybe he should start moving with the times.
41. Rachelle
“there are no requirements that the editorial team give you even that, so just be content with what you have.”
Also, the Welsh speakers seemed to always be content (or, if they were not, they didn’t write arsey letters to GR about it) with the page…it’s the ones that want it translated that are causing the trouble. It’s defence, not offence.
42. Samuel Lloyd
The whole debate seems to be little more than insecurity. Its very inconsiderate of some outspoken English speakers to question how much we value the Welsh language and to force such a passionate plea from so many.
43. Angharad
Mark and others of the same opinion, why should we be content with what we have when it is being threatened and insulted? It is merely disrespect that you are showing towards your fellow students. As Welsh speakers, we might not be wearing t-shirts around the place indicating that we do infact speak Welsh, but it does not mean that we do not exist. And it does not mean that we do not have a right to hear, read or write in our own language. If I were in an University in England, I would not be surprised by the objection of a Welsh-only page, but since I actually chose to come to an University in Wales, primarily because I wanted to communicate, socialise and interact with others in Welsh, I simply cannot understand. I completely agree with Llyr, Huw and Sion’s mature debate. If anything, we should not have to defend our right in keeping Taf-Od but campaigning for much more material in Welsh.
44. Jon
I feel that what Mark has been saying has been completely misunderstood. I hope he doesn’t mind if I say a few things and that I don’t misrepresent him.
Sian: I have nothing against you, and am actually glad you are so passionate about the language, as so few are these days, but if you are going to try and belittle Mark for his spelling mistake then at least make sure you spell things correctly yourself i.e. it’s “accept that you live your student life here…”, not “except”.
Huw: Mark isn’t trying to create any kind of rift, he is simply stating the facts. If you believe these facts to be causing a rift, then maybe you should look more closely at the situation. Mark has no direct influence on anything that Gair Rhydd does or does not do.
Emyr: To classify Welshness as being a singular experience in traditional upbringing is absurd. The experiences between North and South Walians are incredibly different in themselves, yet both are proud to be Welsh. I don’t speak Welsh, and have grown up in an English dominated part of North Wales, yet I still take pride in my country. Am I to be denounced simply because I wasn’t raised so closely to the traditional Welsh heritage as maybe you were? The notion is daft. Modern Welshness is quite different to traditional Welshness, be that a good thing or a bad thing. Mark simply finds pride in other aspects of Welshness than the language, though I do know he is more of a supporter of the British identity in today’s society, which is arguably more apt with its current multicultural nature.
Tom: Mark didn’t say that he finds Welsh to be “utterly embarrassing in today’s world.” I believe what he was trying to say was that he finds those who keep Welsh alive simply for the sake of it an embarrassment.
Angharad: I agree with you that we shouldn’t have to defend the Taf-Od inclusion and that rather the effort should be placed into securing a larger Welsh language section. However, Mark was simply making the point that since Cardiff University is dominated by English-speaking people and the fact that Gair Rhydd has no obligation to produce a Welsh language section, has a limited budget and that it costs more money to actually create a bilingual paper, it is fortunate that the Taf-Od exists at all, since presumably 95% of the students won’t be able to understand it. Mark isn’t slighting its existence, nor is he declaring that he wants it gone, he is simply stating that (and although ideally it shouldn’t even be this way) we are fortunate to have it at all under these circumstances.
My personal opinion on the whole matter is that I’m glad there is a Welsh section. It is unfortunate that non-Welsh speakers kick up a fuss about it, but then again they are being excluded from understanding a section of the newspaper, which for all they know could be saying anything about them. The Welsh language does need to be kept alive, but if the Welsh-speaking students feel so passionately about the Taf-Od then maybe they should become more proactive, either within Gair Rhydd to have a Welsh version printed, or by producing a separate Welsh paper. Either way will cost money, which in the end is the controller of all things. Perhaps rather than arguing with the non-Welsh-speaking students of Cardiff University, more pressure should be placed on the Welsh Assembly to promote the language more.
45. dienw
Wylit, wylit Lewelyn, Wylit waed pe welit hyn!
46. Jamie
Out of interest, how many of the Welsh-speakers here have actually contributed to Taf-Od?
47. Mark
Thanks to you Jon, I certainly have no issues as you acting as my official spokesman. I thought what I was saying was perfectly clear, evidently I was wrong, though you managed to comprehend my points.
Without repeating what Jon has so eloquently said I will add a few things.
I have no problem whatsoever with Taf of, it matters not to me that Gair Rhydd has a few pages in Welsh and I am not one of those people kicking up a fuss over its existence.
Cardiff may be the capital of Wales but it is defacto an English city because of its proximity with England and centuries of Anglicisation. That is certainly not true for all of Wales but it is true of Cardiff, you can not expect the Welsh language to be respected more than law requires it to be because the overwhelmingly majority of Cardiffians have more in common with our cousins across the channel in Bristol than we do with the rural dwelling, Welsh speaking peoples of the north and west. Secondly Cardiff University tries to be a global University and broke its shackles to the University of Wales, it is not a Welsh University but an International University that happens to be in a very English part of Wales.
Sian, if get your panties in a wad over such a trivial matter than I assure you the feeling is more than mutual. I couldn’t care les if you speak Welsh or not or but Gair Rhydd has no legal obligation to give a full Welsh translation or even offer a single piece of Welsh in any edition. I suspect they probably want to but the reason they can’t is either the unwillingness or inability of Welsh speakers like yourself to do anything about it. In short if you want the Union to take your language seriously get off your arse, stop whinging and do something.
48. Emyr Gruff
Jamie: How many of the English-speakers here have actually contributed to gair rhydd, or any other English language publication? Just because Welsh is my first language, it doesn’t neccessarily mean that I’m a talented journalist, and it happens to be that I’m not. I’m not going to write for tafod, because the honest truth is that I can’t write gripping articles, be it in Welsh, English, or Serbo-Croat.
Making the Welsh language into a politcal football is extremely dangerous. I find Emyr (the other one) ’s comment derogatory towards people who have not experienced an upbringing in Welsh, even though if they were born in Wales. Although I was bought up in a Welsh speaking home in South East Wales, a lot of my family and friends are unable to speak the language, even though they might be very proud Welshmen. It is them we should be including and encouraging to become a part of the ever growing Welsh speaking community.
In Catalonia, the Catalan language has been offered and extended and EMBRACED by all levels of society – be they nationalists, socialits or pro-union conservatives with Spanish surnames. Although a symbol of Catalonia and a cultural difference from the rest of Spain, it is a day to day language that is spoken by the vast majority of the Catalan population. It is the everyday language of the Government, the courts, the schools, the universities and even the language of gossip in bars in cities like Barcelona, Lleida and Tarragona. It is not seen as anything more than that – and making the Welsh language into a symbol of nationalism is just putting it in danger of antagonism by people who are against nationalism as a political theory.
As Welsh speakers we should be proud to share our language with others. In order for Wales to become truly bilingual, we should not force any kind of political belief on anybody, or snub them because they haven’t been lucky enough to experience the language. We should encourage everyone to start learning it, and start using it. That is why I am for putting a small glossary of the more difficult words on the bottom of taf-od; it would greatly aid Welsh learners interested in the column. As a French and Spanish student, I sympathize with anyone learning the language and I encourage them to persevere! Daliwch ati!
49. Emyr Gruff
Jamie: How many of the English-speakers here have actually contributed to gair rhydd, or any other English language publication? Just because Welsh is my first language, it doesn’t neccessarily mean that I’m a talented journalist, and it happens to be that I’m not. I’m not going to write for tafod, because the honest truth is that I can’t write gripping articles, be it in Welsh, English, or Serbo-Croat.
Making the Welsh language into a politcal football is extremely dangerous. I find Emyr (the other one) ’s comment derogatory towards people who have not experienced an upbringing in Welsh, even though if they were born in Wales. Although I was bought up in a Welsh speaking home in South East Wales, a lot of my family and friends are unable to speak the language, even though they might be very proud Welshmen. It is them we should be including and encouraging to become a part of the ever growing Welsh speaking community.In Catalonia, the Catalan language has been offered and extended and EMBRACED by all levels of society; be they nationalists, socialits or pro-union conservatives with Spanish surnames. Although a symbol of Catalonia and a cultural difference from the rest of Spain, it is a day to day language that is spoken by the vast majority of the Catalan population. It is the everyday language of the Government, the courts, the schools, the universities and even the language of gossip in bars in cities like Barcelona, Lleida and Tarragona. It is not seen as anything more than that; and making the Welsh language into a symbol of nationalism is just putting it in danger of antagonism by people who are against nationalism as a political theory.As Welsh speakers we should be proud to share our language with others. In order for Wales to become truly bilingual, we should not force any kind of political belief on anybody, or snub them because they haven’t been lucky enough to experience the language. We should encourage everyone to start learning it, and start using it. That is why I am for putting a small glossary of the more difficult words on the bottom of taf-od; it would greatly aid Welsh learners interested in the column. As a French and Spanish student, I sympathize with anyone learning the language and I encourage them to persevere! Daliwch ati!
50. Thomas Carroll
Has someone phoned all their Welsh speaking friends to come on Gair Rhydd and give their tuppence about Taf-Od or is this actually the first article all these commenters have ever felt was important enough to comment on?
51. Eleri
Mark in your world everything in Cardiff may seem to be English, but that’s your perspective of Cardiff, have you thought of the people who see it from a different perspective? I’m not going to argue that the Welsh speaking are in the majority in Cardiff but you are not looking at a very realistic point of view. As a Welsh speaker, who socialises in Welsh in Cardiff, there is a much bigger Welsh community than people think, the fact is, you’re not in that circle and so aren’t as aware of it. I have a lot of respect for those who aren’t Welsh speaking but appreciate Taf-Od, and what it means to the Welsh speaking students. What harm is it REALLY doing??? It would be a disgrace if Gair Rhydd were to take this one page away from us, as many have said, we are here studying in the capital city of Wales, and for the welsh speakers, the language is everything to them, the least the union can do is ensure that this one page is kept for the welsh language.
52. Mark
Eleri,
“the least the union can do is ensure that this one page is kept for the welsh language.”
Why? They don’t actually have to.
53. Aisling
This issue was raised to initially discuss whether or not Taf-Od should be translated. The answer to that seems to be ‘no, it should not.’
Whether or not there should be a welsh-language section at all is a different question. If there wasn’t a welsh section, would people have the option to submit welsh articles for the relevant sections
Thomas Carroll – This is probably the first Taf-Od page to be mentioned on the front of Gair Rhydd. Taf-Od generally is quite isolated from the rest of the paper. The editors aren’t at meetings, they’re not mentioned at meetings. Perhaps Taf-Od need to be seen as part of Gair Rhydd rather than as Welsh language page.
54. Jamie
Emyr – true, but for English people reading the English pages it’s not a matter of pride in the language and history; as it seems to be for many Welsh speakers, surely more would get involved (and I take your other point, but I’m sure some are more than capable)?
55. Thomas Carroll
It’s not on the front Aisling…
56. Jamie
Aisling – they also don’t design their page, as far as I’m aware.
57. dienw
Yes they actually do design their own page, or they used to anyway. Don’t speak of something you have no knowledge of….waz.
58. Ceri
I can’t say that I’m shocked that so many comments have been made on these articles because it’s a topic which many of us feel passionately about.
So why on earth is there only a handful of contributors to Taf-Od when there are plenty of Welsh speakers at the university who can clearly write?
With all do respect to the contributors to Taf-Od, the page is screaming out for some variety. (There’s only so many times that questions of Welshness can be raised by the same small group of writers in fresh and interesting ways)
This is no slap on the wrist for the editors of Taf-Od, but rather a plea to all of those who have written so passionately on this discussion to put pen to paper more often.
As Llyr rightly points out in his article, Taf-Od needs to be made worth saving, and we can do this if we all (myself included) chip in a bit more to make it a page to be proud of.
59. Isaac
Hello, just incase you have lost sight of who I am, I wrote the initial letter to GR, concerning the taf-od translation.
My first point is to say how disappointed I was with a) my initial response from the editors in the gair rhydd, b) the amount of distance this debate has traveled from the initial suggestion of a mere translation of the page, in both languages, and c) the double page taf-od spread.
I thought the double page spread this week was needed in response to the recent debates that had been going on as a follow up to my letter. However to realise that the three comments left on the page were by Welsh students, and not a single one by an English, or even an impartial overseas student, was included. To add insult to the injury, one of the comments was again in Welsh, without a suitable translation. This seemed like a certain sense of ‘preaching to the converted’, and is not constructive nor healthy in a debate that has on the most part been mature, and well conducted.
Also I would like people to note my disappointment in their detraction from the initial letter. I simply said that a translation would be a means of not excluding a vast majority of the cardiff university population. At no point did i ever mention anything about “prejudice and racism” – Elliw.
I at no point wanted to heighten the rift between English and Welsh speakers in cardiff University, but this seems to have been achieved (within the locality of this forum at least) thanks in part to the mass snowball effect of people commenting, without reading all posts, and contracting in arguments that needn’t have existed until then. Also taking as a personal attack, a suggestion to provide an english translation. I didn’t at any point make a derogatory remark towards the Welsh language and culture,
“this debate has begun due to lack of education about the Welsh language and culture. Although I am glad, as many have earlier noted that Welsh issues are brought to people’s attentions, the complete lack of respect is shocking, astounding and quite frankly appalling” – Sian
It was not born out of an ill education of the Welsh heritage and culture, i come from Cornwall where there is a sense of pro-activeness in restoring the Cornish language, and i feel that this is a valuable feature of any culture. However I would not hesitate to write a letter of similar substance to my local newspaper if it was to do the same thing, and if it was a publication i read so often.
One final point is that, if you are posting on this page, that if you are posting in Welsh, then it seems like a very petty means of debate. It is doing exactly what some previous posts have said to defend the welsh language (Using it just to exclude the english, welsh pub example etc.)
Thanks Open to response, and i will respond myself, if i have time, and/or you want me to
60. Ann Onymus
In response to Ceri, I agree that more of us Welsh speakers should put pen to paper and contribute to Taf-od. The reason for so few of us contributing is that many aren’t aware that they are free to submit articles. It has not been made clear that it’s not only the editors of the page who get to write for it. This is certainly the reason why I haven’t contributed. And I believe that this whole debate will motivate a variety of writers to contribute to Taf-od.
61. Sion
Rwy’n annog unrhyw un sydd am gyfranu at dudalen Taf-Od i wneud hynny drwy gysylltu â Dafydd ar – Dafydd@loughran.eu Mae Taf-Od yn bwysig fel yr unig gynrychiolaeth o ohebiaeth Gymraeg yn ein papur NI. Ewch ati i ysgrifennu!
This message is a plea for anyone who wants to contribute to the Taf-Od article- contact Dafydd through e-mail. The Taf-Od remains important as the only welsh language contribution to OUR student weekly.
Isaac, thanks for your comments. They have certainly sparked a heated forum over the past week or so. Discussion is healthy…I think…and sincerely hope.
I wouldn’t want to discriminate anyone from enjoying the articles written in Taf-Od, and would actually support an English translation if it was to be put up on the website (although an exact translation may be problematic- maybe a brief summary to give a taster of what the vibrant Welsh community do here @ Caerdydd?? or key phrases in English and Welsh to help/encourage learners??).
However, as I have stated in my contribution to this week’s issue, publishing an English translation next to the original article every week would take the important uniqueness of the Taf-Od away from it. And due to the rather somber fact that the Welsh language is squeezed onto only one single page and very much ignored throughout the rest of the paper, many feel (as the response on the forum demonstrates) that this is a severe threat and is rather unfair.
Surely you can understand this view and maybe consider that this whole fuss only highlights the fact that more Welsh needs to be seen in gair rhydd??
And just to clarify that the reason Llyr, Huw and I were chosen to respond to comments regarding Taf-Od this week was because the editor had specifically asked for Taf-Od to react to the debate. It was Taf-Od’s chance, and our chance as contributors to the Welsh page to demonstrate our views. Others (like yourself) with differing opinions have been free to comment on the forums etc. But this 2 page spread, including the Welsh response by Huw, was put together by Taf-Od and was part of the Taf-Od contribution for the week.
I eagerly await for your response, Gyda pharch/with respect.
62. Gwilym Dwyfor
Thank God that Isaac Parnell has just posted, to remind everyone of what started this debate in the first place, a debate that is rapidly getting out of hand. The initial letter was just a suggestion that the Taf-od section should be translated. Even though I don’t agree with that I thought it was a perfectly fair and reasonable suggestion. I also thought that the response given by Gair Rhydd was perfectly fair and reasonable. Of course Taf-od should remain a Welsh language section but as many have already said, I think the idea of a glossary is an excellent one. A glossary would be a great way of making the section more understandable and useful to people like Aisling who are doing a very difficult and admirable thing – learning the Welsh language. I was one of the Taf-od editors last year and I’m gutted that I didn’t think of that then!
I’m going to try my best to keep out of the unnecessary debate that has developed, and indeed, overshadowed the important issue here. Having said that, this Mark chap is really getting on my nerves! His two main points are that Gair Rhydd has no legal obligation to print bilingually, and that ‘the culture of Cardiffians is overwhelmingly English’. If that first point is true, it is in fact a reply to the original suggestion made by Isaac Parnell and not an answer to another comment in the debate (as he intended it to be). Surely this legal stuff should apply to the Welsh in Taf-od just as it does to the English in rest of the paper. The second point is completely irrelevant (incidentally I believe it to be untrue as well). I say it’s irrelevant because this debate has nothing to do with Cardiff or ‘Cardiffians’, Gair Rhydd is not a regional paper, it is a student paper for all the students of Cardiff University. Some of those students come from all over Wales and some of them speak Welsh, and there is a very small percentage of the student newspaper allocated to them. What the ‘culture of Cardiffians’ has to do with that, I fail to understand. It seams Mark has confused between Cardiff and Wales, as many people do unfortunately.
I could go on all day about some of the ludicrous comments that have appeared on this page, but I won’t do that in fear of losing sight of the original issue. If somebody would take the wooden spoon and shovel away from ‘Mark’ there wouldn’t even be a debate. He would stop stirring and stop digging a hole for himself. Perhaps it would be easier just to ignore him from now on.
63. Gin
Isaac – I don’t think it was your initial letter that caused most of the problem. Personally, more of the issue for me was from the second letter, where someone else stated that excluding the English majority at Cardiff University was racial discrimination, and made the point about how most Welsh speakers can already speak English. He also made a comment about providing an online translation for those who were genuinely interested in the article. If so genuinely interested in the article and therefore the language, why not actually (shock horror) try learning a bit of Welsh?
64. James Thomas
What I think many people fail to realise is the extent to which the Welsh language is used, even in Cardiff. It’s easy to ignore, but if you were to open your ears slightly you’d realise it’s more common than you think. Let me give two examples:
My Welsh-speaking flatmate (of which there are two in my flat) has one of her seminars conducted in Welsh, because it just so happens that, by pure coincidence, all of her classmates and the teacher are First Language Welsh. I’d say that, in my year at the School of Music, 25% of students are fully or partially fluent in Welsh. As someone who dropped Welsh after GCSE, I can often feel alienated when I’m among a group of Welsh Speakers. Luckily, they acknowledge that not everyone speaks Welsh so switch to English when it would be beneficial to us.
The university makes much provision for the Welsh language. In the School of European Studies (and elsewhere, I presume), essays can be submitted in English, the language of study or Welsh, whichever is preferable. Every single announcement issued on the university noticeboard is translated into Welsh. And, in case you were unaware, there is a School of Welsh within the Humanities Department.
The Taf-Od page is not an attempt to exclude non-Welsh speakers; it symbolises the fact that the University does not treat Welsh as a second-class language.
65. Dewi
This is ridiculous!!! You English speakers get your fair share in a country that is not yours!! If you don’t like the ONE single page in Gair Rhydd (which is a welsh title) being welsh then just ignore it!! idiots!!
66. Aisling
Isaac – dw’i eisiau ysgrifennu sylw yng nghymraeg. Dw’i ysgrifennu cymraeg sylfaenol. Beth yr problem gyda hwnnw.
I’m pretty sure google can translate for yoyu.
Sion – diolch – bydd i e-bost rhywbeth am y tudalen.
Gwylim – thank you – it is difficult to learn and use welsh right.
67. Elliw
Isaac – I apolgise if you thought my comments on ‘cries of prejudice and racism’ related in any way at all to your first letter to Gair Rhydd.
As you will notice, I did not comment on your first letter as I thought it was quite a reasonable question, answered sensibly and fully by the GR editors.
My comments were in response to Jonnie Bradbury’s letter (Issue 883) -
“However, to deny the English-speaking proportion of the readership a translation goes beyond protecting heritage, it starts to look rather like racial discrimination.”
Furthermore, I would embrace a glossary or summary of Taf-Od articles, as I feel it would encourage more to stop and take a look at the page, and maybe even try to learn a bit of Welsh.
My sincerest apologies, Isaac, if you thought my comments were a personal attack on you.
68. Mark
Gwilym, please don’t assume or infer how I meant to take a point to be taken. I am merely pointing out that there is no legal requirement for Gair Rhydd to print billengally because it is not covered by the Welsh Language Act, that, of course, goes both ways so there is no legal obligation to translate Taf of. I would have thought that would have been blantantly obvious, but thank you for clearing it up for anyone who was confused. You’re correct when you state that the demographics of Cardiff have nothing to do with the original point, but they were not brought up in response to the original point but to secondary points made by others. I assure you that I am not confused between Cardiff and Wales, I am a born and bred Cardiffian and I can assure you, without a shadow of a doubt, that Cardiff has far more in common with Bristol than it does with Brecon. Cardiff is, for all intents and purposes, an English styled University with international aspirations, unlike any other university in Wales. The point is that if people from the rest of Wales come to Cardiff to study assuming that simply because we are the Capital of Wales then we like them and respect, understand or care for the Welsh language then they are in for a shock. The fact that Gair Rhydd only prints one page exclusively in Welsh, which is something I have not argued against, is testament to this underlying fact.
James, the University makes those provision for the Welsh language because they are statuary obligated too. The whole point is that whilst the University itself is legally obligated by the Welsh Language Act to offer the provisions you mention the Union, though affiliated with the University, is a separate and distinct body which is not covered by the Act thus it need not offer such provisions or consideration for Welsh speakers.
69. dienw
Actually Mark I must correct you on your final point. The Union has a bilingual policy separate from the University…just to let you know.
70. Mark
The Union is not covered by the Act, any bilingual policy the Union has is completely voluntarily on their part.
71. Gwen
Mark, I don’t see why the Welsh Language Act is so important here. This is an argument about the importance of Taf-od to the identity of the Welsh students, and to give the Welsh language its place in this Welsh university. No-one’s arguing that the Gair Rhydd would be breaking the law by not including it. As a non-Welsh speaker, don’t assume that because you hear less Welsh on the streets in Cardiff that it’s not there. Very often people chose to speak in English even though they are able to speak in Welsh, others can read and understand Welsh, but aren’t confident enough to speak it. For Taf-od then, I would suggest that it’s very likely its reader-base may be wider than it first appears. Also, I didn’t come to Cardiff to study ‘assuming that simply because we are the Capital of Wales then we like them and respect, understand or care for the Welsh language’ ( I don’t quite know who ‘we’ and ‘them’ are here), but I haven’t been shocked. I am part of a thriving Welsh community in the University, and am able to study, socialize and (due to Taf-od) read some journalistic material all through my mother-tongue. And the fact that Gair Rhydd actually prints one page in Welsh is testament to this underlying fact.
And don’t reply so flippantly to the people who respond to your pointless arguments – you only appear arrogant.
72. Aisling
I heard an argument in Welsh between a couple in Poets Corner the other day. Everyone was quiet and my friend looked at me for translation.
so someones using welsh regularly
73. Mark
I didn’t say you shouldn’t have the right to view a Welsh page in Gair Rhydd I just implied for the overwhelming majority of students it’s a non-issue. If you want to read more student orientated news in your ‘mother tongue’ even though you’re obviously an able English speaker then you, or any other Welsh speaker, should do something about it.
74. dienw
Voluntarily or not, they have a bilungual policy. I have the papers…
75. Anni
For the sake of moving forward from JUST debating, can everyone make an effort to state clearly where they stand on the main issue? Is there a place for a translation of Taf-Od (not Taf-of, Mark) in Gair Rhydd?
My opinion – no, there definitely isn’t a place for a ‘translation’.
Let’s try and brake down the bull shit so we can see where we stand on the matter, and then move forward to discuss some kind of compromise if it is needed.
76. Mark
No, I don’t think there is any requirement for any English translation of the Welsh page in Gair Rhydd and that has always been my position.
77. Dave
I don’t think Taf-Od should have a translation in the paper.
Think an online translation/summary could be implemented at the writers discretion.
Reading the comments and article, alot of Taf-Od seems to focus on the Welsh culture and language, and providing access to these articles could encourage new students of Cardiff to learn more about their new home.
Blabber aside… Translation in Gair Rhydd – No. Translation/Summary online – Up to the writer.
78. Chris White
Does gair rhydd’s editor understand Welsh?
If not, then given that the editor has ultimate legal resposibility for everything printed in the newspaper, it’s either very brave or very foolish to have any Welsh-language content at all.
79. Aisling
Ben Bryant (gairrhydd ed.) does not speak Welsh, but recently there is a translator who usually reads over the Welsh page before it goes to print.
I’m not sure when the last Welsh-speaking Gair Rhydd editor was.
80. ann onymous
heh, a translator who reads over the page, why not just translate it whilst they’re at it
81. Aisling
have you read the previous 80 comments?
82. Jon
Why not just offer an English translation on the Gair Rhydd website, and put in the header of the Taf-Od page “For an English translation please go to www.gairrhydd.com”.
Seems simple enough and appeases everyone.
83. Isaac
Aisling, again i stress the importance of not writing in welsh when conducting a formal argument with me. It is petty, there is no need, when there is a fluent mutual language, and it belittles any respect I may have had for you. I asked for one courtesy, to make this debate flow more smoothly, and you denied it. It is obeying to the aforementioned stereotype of the Welsh pub situation once more.
84. Isaac
and Jon, i agree this is a great solution to please everybody
85. Aisling
I believe the reason this debate got to 80 comments is because that resolution wouldn’t please everybody.
As for whether or not it belittles anyone to add a comment in welsh, well thats not my intention, only a choice I made for my own benefit. I wanted to write in Welsh, it translates as – I want to comment in Welsh. I write basic Welsh. Whats the problem with that?
I have made my opinions on the matter quite clear already. I’m not asking for respect, I’m only stating my opinion.
86. Anni
I don’t believe a translation is the answer here. Not even just on the internet. As many have noted, too much of what Taf-Od stands for would be lost in translation. There could be an English article on the same topic to be put in another part of Gair Rhydd (or the internet), but a translation would destroy the Welsh essence of which the original article is built on. This is what a Welsh page of journalism represents to the Welsh readers. No translation – it is a compromise that would destroy the point of Taf-Od. My opinion is not to say that there isn’t another answer, but maybe we don’t need to change a thing, seeing as it is just a small percentage of readers that have raised the suggestion of a translation. I’m confident that NO TRANSALTION (on paper or on the internet) would be the outcome of a vote.
87. Aisling
If I understand it right, one of the recent Taf-Od pages was talking partly about the Ross/Brand scandal, which had been written about in Opinion a couple of weeks before.
88. Sara
Aisling, you understood right, though it was going more from the angle of idolising dictators/people we shouldnt idolise (stemming from the Stalin poster behind Brand).
There’s a team of Welsh Editors who edit the Welsh page and then send it on to Ben Bryant.
89. Lois
I really don’t understand how anyone would wish to deprive welsh speakers in the university one tiny page in a whole paper. As has been said time and time again, We are in a Welsh university in the capital city of Wales, how could you NOT expect to see Welsh in the paper?
I can completely understand why some people would feel left out by not being able to understand what is being said in the “taf-od” section but to be honest, even if it was translated, I still don’t believe that what is being said would be of any relevance to other people except for welsh speakers. That being said, I would hate to think that people with a genuine interest in what was written in “taf-od” are being left out, such as those who are learning the language or those who have an interest in welsh affairs but can’t speak the language. So I believe that there SHOULD be some glossary or a summary of what is being said and I am quite disappointed in those who are point blank refusing to even consider this idea, surely it’s better to compromise than risk losing the only bit of welsh we have in our student weekly?
Perhaps if there was more Welsh to be seen around the union and the university in general then people would not find the idea of a welsh section in the “Gair Rhydd” so odd.
90. Isaac
Lois, it’s not that the ‘welsh section in the “Gair Rhydd” [is] so odd.’ it’s that there is no allowance made for the majority of the population of Cardiff University, who cannot understand the page. A web translation is a great suggestion. However I thank you for your understanding in the matter in general, and how you have managed to contain your arguments in a sensible manner without getting so ridiculously carried away with visions of an entirely welsh paper. However to generalise that the issues raised in Taf-Od would only be of concern to Welsh language speakers is an unfair generalisation. As I have said before, I cannot think of a single example of where something MIGHT not be of interest to myself as a non welsh speaker. Even if it is just a repetition of a previous article, in a separate part of the paper, I’d rather be able to come to that conclusion myself, and if this was to come through the form of a web article, then I sincerely welcome the idea.
The frequency and standard to which this website is updated, I see it as being no problem and a great compromise to have a translation available in a section of the site.
Cheers Isaac