Gair Rhydd

1. Lianne Wilson

I plan to be at Student Council if possible this time where I understand this will be brought up, but, if possible, I’ve a few questions about this; hopefully someone will be able to answer them.

From what I understand we will have exactly the same toilet facilities as before but instead of a symbol of a woman we will have ‘toilets’ and instead of a symbol of a man we will have ‘toilets with urinals’. Is that right?

OK, how will this work? Will someone who ostensibly appears to be female (whether through body or clothing or whatever) be able to use the ‘men’s’ toilets (with urinals)? Will someone who appears to be male be able to use the ‘female’ toilets (without urinals)? Does this mean that essentially anyone will be able to use any toilet? If not, how will it be decided whether you can use the male/female toilets?

It seems like the idea of this policy is to have a more fluid representation of the gender spectrum, but how will this work when toilets are basically still segregated (into with/without urinals)? Won’t people still have to choose which to side with? After all, changing the names will probably not change most people’s perceptions of which is for men and which is for women.

If people who appear to be female can use the toilets with urinals and vice versa, won’t the men using the urinals at the time potentially be made to feel very uncomfortable? Aren’t there potential safety issues with basically mixed-sex toilets? What about privacy issues? What about people from religious faiths with taboos on seeing the opposite sex in such places? If we’re taking away the distinctions why not just have unisex toilets?

Basically, how will all this work and how many of these issues are relevant and have been considered?

Please note, I’m not attempting to criticise the policy, just to get a better idea of how it’s intended to work. If I have misunderstood or sounded ignorant, I apologise, I have little to go on with this issue without more details.

2. Rachelle Simons

To Gareth, Thanks for writing the article but these are not, and never will be, ‘transgender toilets’. Also, my name is Simons.

Lianne, You understand correctly! However, I believe, putting too much importance on the urinals. The reason why I would like to change the signage to that is simply so men (for the moment let’s restrict this to cis-man for ease) that would prefer to use a urinal can find one easily.

And if he is nearer the ‘toilets’ as opposed to ‘toilets with urinals’ then he can go into those and use the toilet to wee standing up, just like in most people’s homes.

As for anyone else, a cis-woman is free to use the ‘toilets with urinals’ and just use the cubicles.

For people in the trans spectrum and also for people who can be read as another gender…they are also free to use either toilet and either the urinals or the cubicles. The difference is that the signage will just say toilet/toilet with urinals so no one has ‘the right’ (not that I believe they do anyway) to give them nasty looks, tell them to get out etc. It may not change people’s perceptions but it will make a lot of people feel more relaxed.

A friend of mine emailed this to me when I was doing a mini-survey before the motion and I think it would explain what I mean better than I can.

“As a transgendered person who has not yet had testosterone treatment nor surgery, I do often find it difficult to know which toilet I ought to use in public. I do normally use the men’s as I now appear male, but did recently use the women’s when I was in the Student’s Union due to the signs outside the door, warning that I, as a biological female, ran the risk of being asked to leave the building. So I used the women’s toilets and was harrassed and given dirty looks by a woman who was wondering what an earth I was doing in there. Currently, I don’t know if there are any disabled toilets in the Union so I usually wait until I get home now to use the toilet. I feel that that wouldn’t be necessary if there were gender-neutral toilets somewhere in the Student Union building for transgendered students to use. “

As for people feeling uncomfortable, we’re talking about changing a couple of toilets in a building which has LOTS (I can think on the top of my head of: the ones in Solus, the other ones in the kitchen/Solus concourse, the ones outside the Sabb offices, the ones in the Taf, the staff ones) and they can just use those? Same for people of certain faiths. If there’s at least 5 (and I think there’s more on the 4th floor) sets of toilets then surely there can be one that is non-gendered. There would also be maps to other toilets, as specified in my motions.

What do you think are the differences between uni sex toilets and gender neutral toilets? In my head the distinction is that the unisex toilets is one of the ones like a disabled toilet that’s by itself. The problem with having one of those is that I don’t think disabled students should have to share and the cost of building a new one would be too great.

I can assure you that all of them have been considered. Questioningtransphobia is a great blog that has information on a lot of these issues, the NUS have a great brief on gender neutral toilets and the newspaper reports from around the time (which were largely awful!) gave me some information about what I would be up against. As for safety, none of the ‘case study’ unis have documented any problems and I think it’s a straw-man argument in that if you have a determined rapist they will get into any space, a sign won’t stop them.

Quite a few big unis have done this now including Manchester, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Sussex, Bath and Bradford. Many gay clubs I know do it because of their large minority of trans clientelle. It’s definitely something I’ve encountered while travelling also.

I am putting the survey together now (trying to find the best questions to ask) so people can fill it in soon.

For more info about what teh LGBT officer is up to check my blog: LGBTCampaignCardiff.blogspot.com and also you can facebook me!

3. Kieran Harwood

Don’t quote me, but I don’t think there are 4th floor toilets (okay, there’s kinda one in Xpress, but it’s just a room that happens to have a toilet in IIRC).

Obviously I can only comment on the male toilets, but in general you can at least see the urinals on the way to the cubicles, in the case of the 3rd floor you have to walk right past them to get to the cubicles. I for one would not feel happy urinating with the prospect of women walking within a metre of me.

Personally I think the sensible thing to do would be to have one toilet with a separated urinal area beyond the cubicles. That way the men who wish to use them can go to them and urinate comfortably, while the men who need to and the women can use the cubicles, with shared hand washing facilities.

Even then this sounds like it may lead to some frivolous activity… I guess there’s not really a way around it…

Lastly, where are we supposed to retreat to in order to talk about the people we’ve been chatting up with our mates? ;)

4. Rachelle

Thanks for that info re: the 4th floor.

But not ALL of the toilets will be changed. I think at most there will be 2 out of 10 where there could possibly be a girl in them. That’s quite a substantial majority.

Also, you could always use the cubicle and wee in the loo like you probably do at home. Quite a few people already feel uncomfortable with things as they are.

Separating off the urinals from view (maybe a kind of MDF waist height ‘wall’ around them) is actually a really good idea. Although, it will up the cost and I was trying to keep costs to an absolute minimum as I thought that that would help get more people on board. But after my survey and Ed Carey’s survey of the uni staff that could definitely be something that’s investigated.

Maybe, but I do think the chances of that in the middle of the day in the union are fairly low.

Lastly, what do you think gays, lesbians and bisexuals do? ;)

5. Rachelle

Would like to clarify also that a change of the toilets in Solus during the night time has never been on the cards due to pragmatic considerations.

6. Beth

I think this is a really good idea. Other unis have clearly tried it and haven’t had any major problems and I’m sure that it wouldn’t go ahead without the relevant research being done. I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable using them. Good luck with the survey Rachelle.

7. rachelle

Please could all interested parties take part in the survey now online :D

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/F9WSRDH

8. Lianne Wilson

Rachelle: I’m glad your survey (which I’ve taken, by the way) was a bit more clear on the term ‘cis-man’, I may know what it means but I was a bit worried you might use it without clarification as you have here and confuse people! :)

Frankly, nobody really needs urinals, though I admit they do speed up the process (I mean, just look at female queues versus male queues). However, since we’ve got them in probably all the male toilets already they may as well stay. I really like Kieran’s idea about separating off the urinal area from the rest of the toilets to reduce potential embarrassment and to increase privacy, etc. I don’t agree with such a wall being ‘waist-height’ though. I could be wrong but I think a waist-height wall would not be all that helpful, being as you are still able to see the person. I’ve seen one before in a tiny unisex pub toilet in France and it seemed many men were still really reluctant to use it. A full one would be much better for a feeling of privacy (and less able to be cheekily peered over).

I certainly don’t mean to sound disregarding of transgender issues here (I’m LGBT myself and can also sympathise with gender-spectrum issues), but I just want to make sure that the introduction of these toilets won’t make a comparative minority (trans people) feel relaxed at the expense of the mental comfort of the majority (cis people), that’s all.

Saying that, I wasn’t aware that the proposal was to change only a couple of the toilets in the building. I don’t think that the change of maybe a set of toilets would pose too many problems and would certainly be useful in trialling the idea at Cardiff and finding out potential problems, etc.

To me, by the way, a unisex toilet would not be a single toilet like the disabled toilets but would be one toilet for everyone set out as Kieran suggests with a walled-off, doored urinal area and shared facilities for cubicles, hand-washing, etc. with both contraceptive and sanitary vending machines. Though, thinking about it, would having those communal cause problems too, perhaps? Lots of women are embarrassed to be seen buying sanitary stuff by guys. Similarly, guys may well be embarrassed buying contraception in front of girls (particularly if it’s accidentally in front of the intended recipient!). The latter is a particular worry since any barrier to obtaining contraception could encourage unsafe sex.

Gender-neutral toilets are perfectly fine idea though, and could well help LGBT issues, as long as concerns for privacy (urinals, sanitary arrangements, contraception) and so on are dealt with. I hope it all goes well.

I’ll hopefully take a look at Questioningtransphobia when I get home, too. Sounds interesting.

9. Kieran Harwood

Thank you Rachelle for being so helpful in answering the questions from both me and Lianne. It has made your proposal a lot clearer (and made it sound a lot more practical).

I gather from a friend (due to not having any personal experience) that female toilets don’t, in general at least, have contraception machines… This sounds rather odd, as surely they have just as much, if not more, reason to want to have them. Anyway, to resolve one of the issues Lianne mentions, it would make sense to have a contraception machine in the separated area with the urinals, which would restore the status quo (although the status is not quo… sorry), it really would make sense to have one in the communal area too (so that females can purchase them), but I guess if at this point they can’t (which is just daft!) then not being able to after either isn’t a problem.

On the sanitary machine side… Not so sure. If you have a separate area where the men can’t see then really why did you bother making it communal in the first place? I suppose you could put sanitary machines in separate toilets (merged with the disabled toilet maybe), I have no idea what kind of demand they have (vis a vis, what kind of queue problem would result).

I believe that, yes, all the male toilets in the union have urinals of various types/sizes (that word covers the trough type and the separate ones too, right?. Some men won’t use them, others (like me) will use them every time if there’s a choice – primarily because of the queuing issue.

Oh, just to clarify, I’m a cis-male. :)

10. Lianne Wilson

Rachelle: Kieran’s reminded me of the manners I meant to show to you: thanks from me too for your time and explanations!

Kieran: The lack of contraception machines in female toilets (unless I’ve missed something in the last few years) is a very weird thing. Rather unenlightened if you ask me.

Re sanitary machines: maybe we can all (men and women) finally get over the “ZOMG, periods!” problem if they’re communal (I’d say the same for contraception, but as I say, I’d worry for the sexual safety of those too shy, whereas a lack of sanitary towel is less dangerous). As for demand, personally I have never once used one or ever in my life seen one being used.

11. Emma

Kieran, don’t be alarmed, there are contraception machines in most female toilets!

12. Jonathan

One thing if the toilets are gender neutral. How will you avoid men or women going into the wrong one for their gender? Not because they and transgender, but for the purpose to harress men or women. Presently, doing so would involve going into the wrong toilet.

13. Rachelle

Lots of people have loads to say and of the people against the gender neutral toilets there were a lot of reoccuring themes. A lot of them I answered in Student Council but not here. I blogged about this, paraphrasing some responses. It can be found here:

http://lgbtcampaigncardiff.blogspot.com/2009/12/gender-neutral-toilets-myths-debunked.html

Please comment back :D

14. Rhys ap Kevin

I do hope that the Union expenditure on this is absolutely minimal.

One question I would love to see answered is: How many TG students are there in CU?

15. Rachelle Simons

The model that I’m proposing would probably be about a fiver. Some signs and some print out maps.

I actually have no idea! But I personally know about 5 in Cardiff and given that estimates range from 1:4000 (some think tank) to 1:1400 (a lobby group for TG rights) there probably aren’t that many. What’s clear is that those numbers don’t count people who aren’t sure, are experimenting, are in different places in the trans scale or don’t want to talk about it. In that way, a toilet where you don’t have to choose to define yourself or open yourself to scrutiny is important.

However, how ever many trans students there are – if they’re complaining then something does need to be done about it. I don’t believe anyone’s discomfort is less worthy than anyone elses.

Other organisations (such as NUS) and schools, FE colleges and unis are beginning to have these resources now and it’s a chance for Cardiff to mark itself out as progressive and forwardthinking.

HEre’s a great report BY trans people about their lives that’s very interesting http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_074252.pdf

16. Josh Beattie

I’m a Jedi – in the last census issued by the government I indicated that this was the case, so do not try telling me that I’m not.

If we’re making changes for 4/5 people, I’d like to change a room in the Union to worship Yoda and practise using the force.

17. Rachelle

You’re being ridiculous, narrow minded, insensitive, facitious and obnoxious. You’re not a Jedi, but do try having that argument with a trans person.

Trans people have real difficulties in their lives. Look up just SOME of the problems. They’re also part of my remit. Obviously I can’t ameliorate big parts of that with my time and money constraints but introducing just one or two gender neutral toilets would be a simple change.

http://lgbtcampaigncardiff.blogspot.com/2009/12/gender-neutral-toilets-myths-debunked.html

18. Rhys ap Kevin

Adding in all the people on the ‘trans scale’, don’t want to talk about it, are experimenting, and the people who aren’t sure, add them to the people who are sure that their transgendered and what number do you think you’d get. I’m not too sure that the number would be much more than the figures you specify from the TG society and the Think Tank.

I also am interested to see that you say “-if they’re complaining” Are they complaining or is this off your own back? How many TG people would it take to make you/the union take action, and similarily, as to Josh’s response, how many Jedi’s would it make to cause you to consider a room to practice using the force; because as you say, no ones discomfort is less worthy than anyone elses.

I have been to many schools, FE Colleges and Unis, along side the usual average attendance at public toilets, toilets in shops/clubs wherever else; and I can honestly say I have never, ever, seen a TG toilet.

I love the idea that the uni is progressive and forward thinking, but there are many other ways to do this than pandering to a tiny minority of people.

19. Josh Beattie

Rachelle, I am a Jedi, dont try telling me Im not.

In England and Wales 390,127 people (almost 0.8%) stated their religion as Jedi on their 2001 Census forms.

And why would I bother having an argument with a trans person when I could just use the force to make them change their mind?

20. Rachelle SImons

I’m not talking about the Jedi stuff. You’re just trying to get a rise out of me and you won’t succeed.

Yes actually. The results of the survey which will be properly announced over Christmas show that. And I know a trans person that wrote a letter to GR this week but there wasn’t a letters page and it wasn’t in it, unless it appears in a late edition.

It’s not a TG toilet, it’s a gender neutral toilet. EVERYONE can use it, trans people can NOT USE IT. It’s just so if a trans person is worried about “passing” that day they can, hopefully, without being challenged. I’ve seen them in clubs and at events where there have been more than average trans people, and also abroad. I’ve not been to any of the other unis that have them but they do exist.

21. Rhys ap Kevin

Rachelle, you’re right in a way about how silly the Jedi stuff is but there is a point to it I think:

How niche, how minority, is the Union willing to cater for?

What about the disabled toilet as well? Can’t that be used?

22. Lianne Wilson

Rachelle: Your link to your blog has a couple of interesting comments. If you don’t mind, I’d like to comment on them here rather than there as I feel them relevant to this thread.

Firstly, I don’t really think it’s helping anyone to tell people who complain about this idea to “fuck off”. The “Chaucer said it” defence isn’t really any excuse to come across as aggressive and easily riled. It just won’t help people come round to your point of view.

Secondly, saying things like “in the current patriarchal system I would question how much men are discriminated against” is a bit rich when you’ve just come from telling someone else that you shouldn’t ever, ever question that similar discrimination is a problem. I’m really not sure you can champion fighting against trans discrimination with one hand and entirely dismiss the idea of discrimination against men with the other. It seems a little hypocritical.

In any case, regarding this thread itself…. the Jedi thing… I think it’s supposed to be a little bit tongue in cheek, don’t you reckon? The humour hides a real point about catering for minority students. If we cater for one group, why not another? Who decides what is a legitimate group with a legitimate need? Don’t get me wrong here, I don’t think we need a Jedi room and I don’t think we should scrap the idea of neutral toilets, but your response was a little uncalled for.

You can’t really tell Josh that he isn’t a Jedi if he believes himself to be one. What seems silly to you may, unlikely but may, be more serious for someone else. After all, many people would claim trans people to be an insignificant and somewhat (traditionally) unusual minority, you (and me) would claim otherwise. I don’t think you can then really go and tell a group with nearly 1% of the population that they don’t really exist. It looks narrow-minded.

Again, let me re-iterate that I’m not opposed to your idea regarding gender-neutral toilets. I’m not trying to bash you here. I think the idea could pose a few teething problems and would need to be handled sensitively, but that it could potentially be a good move and help LGBT people as well as others. At the very least, a trial run can’t hurt. All I mean to say here is that perhaps you may want to come across a little less aggressively and consider a few changes in tone.

23. Rachelle

Lianne,

No, of course I don’t mind. That blog was supposed to be a rebuttal to some of the responses I’ve had to the survey. Some of which have been very offensive indeed. And, yes, dropped the f bomb at me. Intolerance is not okay and I take a firm stance with that. I would say it in conversation and perhaps it looks a bit different in print but I think it’s well deserved.

And I wasn’t saying that just because Chaucer says fuck that I can in any circumstance. I was saying that that commenter called me ‘illiterate’ and I was saying, on the contary, fuck has a rich literary tradition.

I really can defend that. It’s completely evident that while men suffer some discrimination it is not systematic and, actually, perpetuated by the patriarchy (eg: stereotyping women as stay-at-home mums hurts men that want to take more time of work to parent.). Trans discrimination is systematic. I’m a feminist, I make no apology for that.

Yes, I reckon it is ‘tongue in cheek’ in the sense that they’re mocking trans people by saying that a religion in a film is equitable to something that results in a more than 50% suicide attempt rate amongst people that define as trans. Something that results often in unemployment, in poverty, something that’s even worse for non-white trans people, something that means that if they get murdered the press will always write “WHO USED TO BE A MAN/WOMAN” after their name, where the murderer can complain that ‘I was so shocked, I stabbed it’ and get away with it, who are disproportionate HIV+...and I can go on.

To bring up ‘Jedis’ and what not just really makes a mockery of transphobia. Same as if I was saying how I’d really rather like to get married to my girlf in my Church and someone said “well I’d really like to get married to my horse in church”. When you’ve been dealing with homophobia (and a hetero-centric culture) since the year ., you reserve the right to tell them to fuck off.

Thank you for your support regarding the gender neutral toilets :D I’m happy that overwhelmingly students agree with you!

24. Josh Beattie

Your lack of acceptance in my way of life is probably going to force me over to the dark side!